Ep 11: Questioning God After Loss

She told me, she said, I woke up one day and I was like, I don't know who God is. You know, I've been a Christian since I was a kid. And this realization of. I don't I don't really know him. Welcome to the Run to the Heart podcast, where we're here to remind you that God doesn't promise us a life free from suffering But he always brings healing and restoration on the other end Our goal is to inspire you to face life's trials with courage and trust in God's plan And oh, yeah run to the hard that God allows All right, welcome back to the run to the hard podcast everybody Curtis, how's it going today man waking up? Waking up. Got my coffee, got my water, trying to get things going here. We're gonna be alright though. That's good. You just got back from boating and you know just hanging out with the family. Vacation time. Yeah, I gotta switch gears. Right, absolutely. So this topic today, we're gonna dive right into it and this particular topic that we're gonna cover is Very relevant to what's kind of going on in our life on our side of the family I mentioned in a prior episode our little nephew Jasper was born with a condition that had him on life support from the very beginning and It it's been a roller coaster things have gone well and things have declined. And actually here recently he was on life support for over 100 days and he started improving miraculously and we're like, okay, Lord, you're doing something. And then he caught pneumonia and there was nothing they could do to save him. After 118 days and all the pain and suffering my sister-in-law and their family were going through, he passed away. And we're all left with the question, God, why? Ultimately, you know, if I was God, I wouldn't have – I would have taken him early in utero. Do you know what I mean? But I'm not and that's a struggle that we all deal with and I know that I Know that there's a really powerful story that Michael shared with you where she was faced with a very similar Viewpoint and so yeah, we're gonna dive into it and and be real and raw this episode on where we're at as believers and Answer some questions Sure. Yeah, we've been praying for Jasper and for the family. It's interesting that we've been doing this podcast literally through your family's, some of your family's hardest moments. And you know, you and I get a chance to talk about it. We pray about these things that are going on in our lives, and it makes it awfully real, you know, that here we are trying to do this and point people to Christ through the hardest situations and your family is living it right now. I would ask you to even share, you know, six, seven months ago you lost a child. So not only have we lost Jasper, but personally, you know, you and I began to go really, really deep through that process that a lot of this came about and so just just share a moment with that too because I know you're you've been kind of private about that but we're about to go deep today and ask some hard questions and I think it's fair that the audience knows that you're no stranger to some of this as well so I don't know don't mean to put you on the spot, but you do it to me all the time. No, right, that's fair, fair enough. So, my wife and I, we have five, and we lost Lawson, which would have been our third boy, and our sixth child, and we lost him at 17 weeks. And it was an experience unlike we'd ever experienced. And it was a stillbirth at that point because he was far along. And so, yeah, just going to the hospital and experiencing a very similar setup to what it was when we had all of our kids, like you never realize, you know, you park in the same parking lot. You go to the same doctor's office and you go to the same desk to check in. You wait in the same waiting room with the families that are, you know, having babies and and you're down the hall from babies that have been born and are alive. And, you know, it's it's hard. It's a lot. And we got to actually hold him after he came out. And yeah, just very traumatic. But I will say that the biggest thing we were praying in that moment was mercy on my wife because it was so hard on her. And I was like, Lord, okay, we're going through what we're going through, but please don't let her suffer like labor and suffer. It was actually a pretty cool God moment, where we were late into the night and she had been a few hours kind of laboring and the pain got really, really bad. And we just started praying and she started praying and she's like, God, please, please, please just let this be over. Let's be over. And she fell asleep And like, it's peaceful. And then, it wasn't like 20 minutes later, she delivered him and it was traumatic, but way better than what it could have been if she was laboring for 17, 18 hours or whatever. But yeah, so that brought a lot of perspective for us, for people who have lost children. And it was tough. And there were waves of grief through that. I would say honestly, and this is what we'll dive into here with Michael's story and your story and even our story is we question God. Like God, why? Why? Because the thing is, personally, we prayed. We're like, God, we have a lot of kids. If you want us to have another child, we want to be prayerful about this and so we prayed like God should we try to have another kid? and we felt a strong piece of shit and so when we did it like What the heck and so? And so yeah, I think just sharing that's fine because we can kind of dive into Dive into Michael's story and sure how we very much so resonate with how she felt when she lost her son Yeah, and that's where you and I, I feel like our relationship went much deeper because as you were going through that, you know, we were talking regularly and praying with you and for you. And I'll never forget driving down to Cincinnati and, you know, we just, I don't know, we spent almost a whole day and sat down with your wife and your wife was just like, tell me about Michael, tell me your story. And you know, I got to breathe a little of that out and got to come alongside you guys. But then, you know, Curtis, we need to do this. I'm like, I'm not sure about that. But anyways, just so people understand how all these things have come together. I think it's an important part of our story that right in the middle of some of the hardest things God God created this thing, this podcast, this ministry, helping people to learn to run to their own heart, but ultimately for the purpose of running into other people's heart, to help them heal and help them find God in their hard spots. And man, you've done, and I know we're just following the Lord in this thing. You know, we're trying to do all the things for His honor, and I feel that. But anyways, I just really wanted people to gain some perspective. Let me ask you a question regarding your loss of Michael. Did it feel like once Michael had passed away, you were on a spiritual high and God was close or did it feel like God was far away and distant and there was dryness in that season? Boy, so much numbness. In the hospital, there were these incredible, they were hard but they were high moments. Michael was having these profound conversations with us every night. So I remember in the hospital, I kept thinking over and over, only God could have orchestrated something like this. Only God could be living through a person on their deathbed to be able to say and communicate and do the things that she did so I think there was a lot of spiritual highs in the hospital, but then a major crash after she was gone, and I was home and in bed and just trying to Sleep it off per se. I can't tell you that I had a lot of God moments during that time I think it was Just trying to survive and wake up the next day and try to get through that day So to answer your question, yeah very much a dry spell where? There just wasn't a lot of communicating with people and or God. I was just survival Hmm it's a good question well, the reason I ask is just because, again, I think as human beings, sometimes we question God and we're, hey, if I was God, I would be very near to the brokenhearted as Scripture says, which He is. But let me ask you this question. I was discussing this with another mentor of mine, and he was telling me, he was like, look, Chris, it's weird. When life hits you, it's almost like God, the analogy he gave was this. He said, if you teach your kid how to ride a bike, you're behind them. And you're either holding onto their waist or holding onto the seat or whatever. And then once they're ready, you let them go. But you're still there, right? Sure. If they start to swerve, you're still there. If they fall, you're still going to grab them. And they might fall, and they might skin their knee. But he was like, I look at that being the maturity of our faith. Whenever we go through dry seasons, it's because God's like, you're mature in your faith. And I'm letting you experience some hurt. And I certainly hope that you'll turn back to me. That's good. Yeah, how does that land for you and kind of what you've gone through? Do you agree with that? Yeah, I think that's good. I think, no, I never felt like God was far away. I felt like he was there. I felt like, but it's interesting because, you know, we talk about our human nature. We talk about the human feelings, the human responses to grief, but I also think there's the protective. God does, God allows our brain and our mind and our heart to go through these protective times too, or it might feel dry. It might feel like he's not present, but he is present. And I think he's helping us navigate and function and get through some of the hardest things that we've ever been. So yeah, I think it's good. Somebody told me the other day, they said, hey, you know, when my spouse passed away, we knew it was coming. It was a cancer, it was diagnosed, we were told he might live this long, blah, blah, blah. And they asked me, they said, hey, did you ever think about the shock factor, the fact that this happened so fast that you probably were in shock? And I had never used that word. I never registered that. Some people plan for a death, meaning they're grieving already. They've had this period, whether it's six months, a year, three years, five years, whatever, where they've been grieving and preparing for it. And so I do think it's different. And then you have those who have lost a loved one tragically, quickly. And Michael was four weeks, which wasn't like an immediate death, but we had no preparation. I mean, it just – anyways. And so I've been thinking about what is shock and doing a little more digging in. And I think for me, I'm realizing that the period after her death, there was probably a lot more shock and after effects than I'm just now starting to realize what they were. God was still there. God was still close. God was still guiding and helping. What do you mean by after effects? Do you mean like waves of grief or particular moments or flashbacks? Some people are bouncing back quickly and I I would I did not I crashed, you know we've talked about that physically mentally three months I laid in bed and had to get help I had to get medical help to get back on my feet and I I Didn't know I didn't know if that was natural. I didn't know if everybody went through that everybody's grief is different But I I'm now learning more about the effects of shock and what that can do to you physically and mentally and anyways. So still learning. You know, again, you and I are just kind of winging it, walking through this and you're sure, you know, we're learning as we go. And it's just one of those pieces that I'm just now digging into and trying to find more information on, so. Yeah, you know, what's interesting to me about what me and Jono went through is I put up this, I don't even know what you would call it, honestly, man, I basically created this defense mechanism, maybe? Sure. And I would tell people, like, you know what, it wasn't any one of the five that I have, you know what I mean? And so I would like downplay it. I would like- And you have, I've seen you do it. I would downplay it and I'd be like, oh no, no, no, no, like thank you, but like my wife is the one who carried him and help her. Sure. And I wouldn't say that I properly grieved. And we've discussed this as well. And we will do a whole episode on this, I promise you, on like crying. And actually showing those emotions. And so, for me, I had that defense mechanism. So, I don't know if you'd call that like immediate shock, like whoa, I can't believe we're experiencing this. Like sure, but there were those waves of different things that happened. But for me, I don't know, yeah, I just created a defense Mechanism that was like, okay, it's fine. Like I'm good. It could be worse Yeah, so I Guess that's the way that's the way I chose to handle it but down the road There will be some reflection and you'll learn some things and you'll figure out how to And you might even have a period of grief later down the road. That's something else I'm learning. I'm seeing people who did push it aside, who did move on quickly, who even remarried quickly, and then years down the road, for the first time, they experienced the grief of that spouse or that loved one or that child. And because of the stories that are coming in because of our podcast. I've seen a couple of those now where the grief comes later and so anyways, yeah, we're learning a bunch of stuff. So I've mentioned we have a fifth and another on the way. It's a boy and we have still not announced this baby and he's further along than even Lawson was. I think you just did. Well, but we haven't announced it on like social platforms or anything and we moved out of state from where all of our friends are and stuff. So when we go back we're going to be like whoa. But anyway, because we're scared. Sure, no. We're scared. You have every right to. Yeah, we're like ah, maybe we'll wait until like this is really, really legit and you know now we're 20 weeks and it's interesting. But yeah, I think that, I think you're right. It will be interesting when he comes out because, will it feel like a replacement? Will it feel like, okay, God, why him but not him? And there's so many questions, which segues me back to the entire point of this episode. And that is like, sometimes it feels like we would do it differently. I know that we have two choices and that's what we're going to talk about today. I turn away from God and I take the throne myself and I say, look, I'm going to sit on this because I don't think you did a good job. Or I press in and I stand up and I say there's not room for both of us and so it should just be you. Yep. And it's hard, it's hard. And so I'd love to hear the story of Ronnie and really understand how all that came about and that difficult conversation and talk through that. Yeah, so we had this 30 day period of vetting and Michael wanted to get to the deep parts quickly. I was having a hard time catching up you know she was asking lots of great questions and telling a lot of personal stories and and asking me hard questions but one one particular night during this vetting process she said I just I need to tell you the whole story and I didn't fully understand what that meant I knew she lost a child but I didn't I didn't fully understand and and she said this might take a while She said I feel like you know And you know may take hours if we have to be up all night You know and she even asked like are you okay in the morning if we you know do this tonight? Cuz you know she by the time she'd get the kids to bed it'd be 10 o'clock and we'd start these late-night conversations and and I remember she just she purposefully Step by step moment by moment took me through the death of Ronnie because she wanted me to know her. She wanted to know her experiences. She wanted me to know her deeply into the core. She felt like this was one of the ways she could get me there. And Ronnie was nine months. She had him for nine months, was getting ready to deliver, and about two weeks or so before he was scheduled to be delivered, she got really sick, and she knew something was wrong. She knew things anyway, so she goes to the doctor, and sure enough, there's no heartbeat. Ronnie had died. Like you, still has to go to the maternity ward, still has to go to the same place that she'd already delivered a child and had to deliver Ronnie, you know, nine months. And it crushed her. It crushed her. And she had these moments where she really, really struggled to know how God could allow this. And I've told this story before, but you know, Michael was this cute little blonde haired conservative girl brought up in a home where, you know, long skirts, you know, do your hair, no makeup, you know, and she was one of the kids who didn't rebel. She was one of the kids who did what mom and dad said, who, you know, was kind to her parents, kind to her siblings, wanted to be the perfect little kid, and wanted to get married and have a great husband, and wanted to have a bunch of kids. She knew this about herself and felt like she had done all the right things, she'd said all the right things, and that God would just bless and God would take care of her and take care of her family. And so, you know, her version of God was really a works-based version. If I do all the right things, if I say all the right things, God's just going to bless and things are going to be great. And so to have this happen to her, I think it just crushed her version of God. that part and I struggled with, because I don't know that I had personally allowed myself to go where she was taking me. Does that make sense? And not only was she taking me there, but it was making me reflect on the hard things in my life, the things that I had pushed away. Childhood without a dad, growing up with mom who could barely make ends meet. I had pushed all that stuff aside and she was making me also go to those hard and dark places. She told me, she said, I woke up one day and I was like, I don't really know him. And that's hard to hear somebody else say, let alone realize that in your own life. And she went on this journey of just diving into the Word, going through the Bible verse by verse, trying to understand and realize who God really was in the middle of all this hard. This was before she ever said the words, you know, run to the hard. But it was the beginning of her running to her personal hard and finding God for the first time. I mean, really finding God for the first time and understanding who He is, that God is just, God is grace, God is relational. She used those words all the time and understanding that Because of the fall of man, you know that death enters the world and because of the fall of man sin enters the world because of The fall of man, you know God has to allow These things in our life are either going to force us to turn from God or turn to God, because ultimately God is relational and God wants relationship with us, but He doesn't force that relationship. We're not robots. He doesn't just turn a knob and say, Go do. He wants us to look for Him. Then in the middle of that, I think of Him calling out to Adam after Adam and Eve sinned. And God is like, look at me, I'm calling your name, I want relationship with you. Like we have that visual representation of God even in Genesis where he goes looking for Adam. Now he's all knowing, he knows what's happened, but he still is saying, look at me, turn to me, talk to me. And she realized that she had to reject the version of God that she'd once had and cling to this, who God really was, for the first time in her life. And I remember going to bed that night after going through this with her. And by the way, she did the same thing. She was like, I'm going to have a child. And she quickly got pregnant with another boy and I mean quickly like she turned right around and was like nope I still want to be I want a child and so she did the exact same thing and and got a boy. I just I remember going to bed that night just feeling the weight of it like I had never gone that deep with somebody before in their trauma in their dark place, in their hard place. And it really challenged me. I woke up in the morning just feeling this heaviness. And I had to seek God and say, okay, God, if this woman is the person you have set aside for me, I don't think that I'm as far down the road as she is. And you're gonna have to do some more work in me because you know she basically was setting the the bar the standard of hey I do want to get remarried I do want to have a great relationship I want a great husband I want a great father but there's a standard there's a level and that's why she took me there of the kind of depth and connection that I want to have with somebody and out of those conversations you know she would ask me about my dad, she'd ask me about my past, she'd ask me those things because she just bore her soul to me, you know. And so the requirement was, is, hey, you know, I want to be on equal playing fields here, relationally. And so, man, God did a work. He began to do a work in my heart, in my life, and allowed me to open up to her. I told her things I don't think I've ever told anybody, but that's what she was going to require to have that kind of a deep, lasting relationship. It changed me. It changed me, and here I am at another crossroads. Let me ask you a question, and this popped in my head when you were talking about that. Because what you think. So I think about Michael's child Ronnie getting sick and how God could have saved him and been glorified. I think about Jasper and how he passed away, and I mean, it was unbelievable. And you think, like, Lord, show yourself. Show yourself. You know what I mean? And the question that came to my head is, like, we all talk about how God is glorified in everything. have the answer to but is God more concerned with bringing us to him than he is glorifying himself in healing? Because I will tell you that within our family we've had cancer disappear from prayer and we we've had miraculous things happen and to be honest with you, we are entitled. And when it happens, we move on with life, don't we? Yeah, we do. There's not as big of an impact as death and the messiness of life when things, traumatic things happen. And so that's my question. What do you think? Do you think God does this because he knows that death and hurt and all the things give people that crossroads to say, come to me or turn from me. And that's why he doesn't heal. You know, when Michael's in the hospital, there were prayer groups all over the place. And I was getting messages, you know, saying, Oh, God, please, please heal her, because this could do so much good. It could bring so much honor and glory to you. And but I remember having to pray every night. I prayed with the kids too. You know, not my will, but your will be done Lord. Christ had to pray this. You know, He's like, please take this cup from me. But if you don't, your will Lord, I'll do what you want. And so the fact that Christ prayed the same prayer, think about that a second. You and I go through these things and we say the words, but Christ did the same thing. He's like, this is hard God. Do I really have to do this? You know, please take this cup, but if you don't, I'll accept your will. And again, Christ is the example. And how can we not pray the same thing? Because, you know, God needed Christ to die for our salvation. And he allowed that to happen because of the ultimate purpose. And so the answer is yes, God always wants something to point us to Him, always, no matter what the circumstance. He's constantly pleading and begging and saying, you know, please, you don't understand how much I love and care for you and how much I want to spend eternity with you because this time on earth is so small. And you and There's not a lot on this earth that matters after you've gone through these things and realize that Eternity is forever. I've had some neat conversations even about that lately with people. You know they've said Fun fun person said don't you get bored of just listen to people talk about fluff and stuff that doesn't matter and surface stuff? And I just die laughing. I'm bored of it. I just want to talk about eternal things and longevity and what God's doing and hearts being changed. I laugh because it changes you. Death and perspective, it changes you. And anyways, interesting conversation. It is interesting though how Michael lost a child, literally gets pregnant with another one, keeps moving on, and how God has blessed that. And so I'm encouraged by that. I know you're putting yourself out there as you talk about these things publicly now. And I can only imagine the fear that you folks are, you know, kind of on the fence about as you're going down this journey as well. Man, well, it the most frustrating part is that it's like, okay, Lord, I've been a Christian all my life. I was a one foot in, one foot out Christian for a long, long, long time. Sure. And then I was like, okay, now I actually get it. And I wouldn't honestly say I became a Christian who was like trying to digest the Bible and understand like really what God wanted for me. And, you know, people ask me now, like, what's life about? I'm like, well, that's the existential question that everyone asks But I'm like look to know God to make him. Yeah. Yeah. There you go And then pretty so ever he wants me to do that. However, he wants to use me as a vessel But the interesting part is in these dark times. We're like Lord. I need to feel you I need to feel something and I need to seek your presence and I need to read the word. And so do we compare our spiritual dryness after death in diving into the Bible? Do we compare it to the Israelites wandered and wandered and wondered and wondered? And God just like keep pressing into scripture, keep pressing in. I promise you, I'll meet you, I'll meet you, I'll meet you, but keep pressing in because I'll be honest, we're in that phase where I'm like, okay, babe, let's open the Bible. Let's go to limitations. Let's read Galatians. So we're reading all these books, but it feels like a checkbox Yeah, I understand that's so So how they're under their God's presence in these mom there. I I guess as you described that I can say I'm there I feel like I'm Going through the motions checking the boxes reading the word going through my prayer list and my prayer list is getting longer and longer Every day, you know, I've gotten I think I've said this before I've got loss man. It's growing I've got divorce and then I've got physical needs. Those are my three big ones I've got you know family that I'm praying for them to find find Christ But my three biggest Lists are to loss Divorce and physical needs by far like they're just they're so long And and it almost feels, you know repetitive go through my list, but I know God honors that. I'm grateful for the people who pray for me. I'm grateful when they come to me and say, I've been praying for you, or I pray for you every day, you're on our family list. I feel honored and grateful for that because I know God is at work, even though I don't feel much, I know He's at work. I know He's at work. I know he's being faithful. And the reason we know is because faithfulness is shown in other ways. You know, what God is doing in and through these kids, what he's doing in and through the relationship I have with their father. These are things that only he could do. And I could give you a dozen of other things that he's doing and so As long as I'm paying attention and seeing God's faithfulness and all these other things It's head knowledge of okay. God. You're there you're working You're doing things even though I may not feel it even though I may not feel all the things He's still doing it and I think It's kind of what's going on in your life. I mean, we're watching. You've moved, you've started new ventures, you have another child on the way. God's doing some stuff. And you and I talk about that a lot. We talked about the fact that sometimes God doesn't give you the answer until you make the first move. And I know that you've had to experience that recently. And God's working. There's doors opening. There's things happening. And so even though we don't feel all the things, it doesn't take away from the faithfulness of the fact that God's doing some stuff behind the scenes. That's where my faith has been growing and relying on in recent days, is looking up, paying attention, seeing the move of God and the work of God, even if it's in others. He's there, He's faithful, He's opening up doors. Let me ask you a question. What would you say to the person who's spiritually full right now, who has a friend like you and like me, who you're just in this season where you're like, God, I know you're real. I know you created all this. I know you died for my sins. I know that trust in Jesus is the only way to heaven. And I know that you are the God of my life. But it hurts right now, it's hard. And sometimes we have those like more charismatic friends that come in and they're just like kind of pushing the emotional side on us, if I can be real. So what do you say to that person as to like how you need to be handled in a season of numbness right now? hmm You put me on the spot because I avoid those people Why why I put them on a hold because okay hmm I I mean this is just a real combo man. It is, it's good. So we're supposed to have the joy of the Lord. Okay? We are. Right. And happiness is not supposed to be circumstantial. It's not. It's not. But we still are physical beings and it's hard. Sure. I think it comes back to if somebody has experienced what you've experienced there is a sensitivity, there's an understanding, and there's also a respect. Does that make sense? Like when you have gone through these things you know you're sensitive to that person's needs, whatever's going on. You're respectful of their space. You have a respect for each other. That then allows the conversation to take place. If you haven't experienced this before, like I said, you know, I think that's the difference. If they're spirit-filled and the Lord's all over them and they've experienced this and gone through this and they've come out on the other side and they have experience and wonderment and joy and the Lord's all over them, I'm more apt to say, bring it on. Let me hear. Let me hear what you have to say. But if that person hasn't experienced this kind of hard, this particular hard, and they're coming at you, and they might be great Christian people, don't take this the wrong way, you're that person, but boy, there's a difference. There's a difference. So I think that would be my answer, is that it's different. And we respect each other's space to the point where sometimes I might even message somebody and say, hey, just checking on how you're doing, and it might be a quick, I'm doing okay, thanks for asking, and that's it. That's the respect of, I know where you're at, I know what you're going through, when you're ready to talk, perfect, but I am not offended at all with a short response or a hey, I'm good, but you know, you know what I mean? That's the respect factor of what you've been through. No, I get it, and I have a few of those in my life, you know, they want to tell you all the things. Mm-hmm. And, um... Mm-hmm. Well, what's your... let's ask another personal question. Are you able to consistently get into the Word and experience the same spiritual practices that you did prior to the loss of Michael? Or is there a numbness there as well? Oh, it's a discipline. I've told this before that some of my greatest spiritual growth happened after divorce personally where I had to really dig in and just say, okay, God, you know, this stinks, this is hard, this hurts. I never wanted to be divorced. I was very judgmental. I was. I'll just admit it. And now I am one of these people. And I was like, I can never be used of God again. I can never do this or I can never do that or I can never lead this because I have this terrible banner hanging around my neck of being divorced. Like I went through all that. God had to really work me over and had to show me, you know, so many people in the Bible who have failed and had done some really awful and terrible things, and God chose them. I had to let the Scripture really speak to me and take away a lot of those images and thoughts and ideas of what this meant for me and my future. Then He gives me Michael. Michael and I went on this spiritual journey where she's showing me how to run into the hard things personally and how to allow myself to be vulnerable to even share those things with her. And then to allow God to really do a work because both of us wanted something so good together. And we grew together spiritually and were married and God kept showing himself over and over and over. And it was so neat as a couple to be able to say, God did that. God did that. God did that. Like, how can we not follow God and do this thing? And so that, that incredible growth was happening. So I'm going to tie the two together. Sure. Because God showed his faithfulness, then my heart's broke. Like my, yeah, it's just broke. But I have this head knowledge of what God has done in the past, and I can't help but think, God, I know you're still there. Like this hurts and I'm experiencing levels of numbness and levels of frustration and things like I've never experienced before. It's not the same. But you have shown yourself over and over and over again and so I know you're going to... He's showing himself. I may not be seeing it. I may not be feeling it. Because you know when I started dating with Michael, I was feeling all the things. It's almost like God just released my heart to feel all the things. It was amazing. It was hurt and joy and happiness all in one. My heart had exploded. It's like God had released the floodgates of emotion for both of us. If she were here and we could tell you the story of how God put us together, we were coming alive. We were coming out of dryness. We were coming out of hurt. And God was just releasing all the emotions. And so what's hard now is having gone through that not that long ago and then feeling nothing now. That is, it's the wrong word, but it's deafening. Quiet, silent, or yet God, what are you doing? And then I'm reminded of the fact that how many times in scripture did a prophet or a messenger of God go through this huge spiritual emotional high and then there was this dry and dead time where they had to go and recoup and rebuild and God had to restore them. Like seriously think about how many and how many people were you know on this roller coaster Jonah to the Ninevites and then he does what God says for him to do and then he's mad that God actually saved him and he goes under a tree And pouts and you know wants to die, you know and man so many times David hidden caves like that's miserable so in recent days, I've read a couple of those scriptures where a Prophet who had been on this amazing spiritual high where God had done some really neat things and then there was a dry period, you know, Moses goes off and just is going to die in the wilderness and God shows up one day and is like, Nope, got a job for you. You know what I mean? So because of the Word of God, because of the stories that I know, I can trust in God during this dry time. I can trust in God during this time of healing. I can trust in God that there's more to do. That there's still work to be done, but I'm obviously not fully prepared yet. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. It does. Back to the head knowledge of the faithfulness of God and the Word of God. But you asked the question about, is it hard to dive into the Word? Is it hard to do the things, the checklist? And the answer is, yeah. I have to go through my spiritual disciplines again, where it's not just like, oh, I'm so excited. No. Sometimes it's just and in these times, I'm some of these scriptures that I'm referring to right now. Some of these prophets, some of the people we're talking about, those pages are starting to really speak to me like, OK, that's interesting. Like I'm I'm there. So you and Michael had this deep conversation where she was left with both of those choices. What's fascinating? Maybe that's not the right word, but she came out on the other side faithful. She chose to turn to God. And we hear this bad word in Christian world, and it's deconstruction. And I don't agree with deconstruction because I believe deconstruction is, I'm going to go find myself, and if God fits in to that, awesome. But that is literally, that is literally commandment number one, do not create a false god. Because if you create this cuddly version of God that loves your sin and agrees with everything you do, then you're going to think you know God and you're going to die and you're going to go to hell. Like that's just real. But I think what Michael did, what we can learn from, is she dove into the – not deconstructing my faith. I'm I'm actually diving deeper into my faith to Solidify the things I always thought I knew even though I feel this way. So my question to you is Coach yourself here. Mm-hmm when you when you're left with these two choices how do you turn to God and Dive deeper into his word when you feel like you just want to go find yourself Hmm there are so many wrong Suggestions and examples that people give you after you've experienced death hmm Let me give you a couple. You know she's always with you. You know you can talk to her anytime. You know that her angel is hovering over you constantly. I mean, I hear hundreds of examples and when you hear that those things over and over and over I can see where people begin to dive in and believe and and so many of those things are not scriptural that doesn't mean there's not hints of has God ever allowed somebody in heaven to see the earth there's there's scriptures that prove that but in rare circumstances God has allowed that, right? But that doesn't mean it's this continuum of things that people will say to you. And so, right off the bat, if you don't begin to question those things and ask yourself, is that true? And begin to navigate, because death is a terrible awful thing. And people can lead, oh that's terrible, but it's true. People can literally lead you down an untruthful path about death, about eternity, about heaven, about hell, about God can literally lead you down a path that is not scriptural about God. And so if you don't stop and begin to ask your questions of what's true and what's not true about this, you know, people call it the spirit realm, you know what I mean? I'm just throwing words out that it's unbelievable how many people will throw these words and things at you that aren't Christians, who have their own weird idea of heaven or hell and you know, my dog's in heaven or whatever. I mean, you hear, Chris, you hear it all. And if you don't stop and think and process, is that true or not? Can I accept that as truth? But again, people are trying to, I don't know, help you, cuddle you, make you feel good about what's happened, and you can't. But I can easily see where people end up, you know, with soothsayers and tarot cards and all that kind of stuff, you know, wanting to talk to the dead and all that. Mediums and all that. Yeah, because somehow they've bought into this idea that, you know, this person is there and all I got to do is go through this person and I can talk to them. Because there is a, oh my goodness, there's this natural inkling to, I want to have another day with her, I want to have another moment with her, I want to have another conversation with her, like that's real. But what does the scripture say about that? What does God say about that? Why did God really create us? He created us to worship Him and spend eternity with Him and have a relationship with Him which is so much higher than what we can expect relationally as human beings on earth. Relationships in heaven aren't the same as relationships on earth. You know how hard that was for me to grasp in the first couple months? Because I just want to go spend time with my wife. And God's like, hold on. Heaven's for me. This is me being super honest with you. That's great, man. I had a friend say, poof. He said, I love my wife so much. I can't imagine her not being here, let alone her going to heaven and me not having that same relationship with her. And that challenged me, man. Again, those things, you come to a crossroads every time you are forced to face truth, scripture, who God is. I can go down that weird path of believing some of that stuff and that, oh, I'm going to go and spend eternity with my wife, or you can turn to scripture and God says I created you to worship me to serve me I Created heaven so that we can have relationship with him Yeah, he allowed these amazing relationships to happen on earth a Man and a woman who can have a family, like those are blessings, those are gifts for relationships on earth. And God says, you don't understand, heaven's better than this. Amen. He says, you don't understand, I don't show you heaven because it's gonna be the most amazing thing you can't comprehend. All we can comprehend is relationships here. And heaven is so much better than here. And so this is where my faith really gets challenged. Like she's there. Hope I run into her. God says, man, my relationship with you is going to be amazing. And we're going to get to sing and celebrate for eternity. And that's going to go against some people's thoughts. I know it is. But that's where when you go through these things, you are challenged by Scripture, you're challenged by truth, you're challenged by what does eternity really look like. That's so powerful. You know, it makes me think of the scripture where, to play devil's advocate here, I 100% agree with you. It makes me think of the scripture that God gives us the desires of our heart. And so, if he did put us in relationship with the people down here, and we are all a body of believers who will worship God. Will God have a right healthy relationship that's not idolatry of our loved ones but he knows that these were the people that he put us with in the first place? I don't know. It's a question it's not a statement. I don't know. Sure. And so the comfort I would find in that is like Lord you know the desires of my heart better than I do. And so ultimately, I trust that whatever you have for me in eternity is your idea and not mine. And I've trusted you and I still trust you. And so we have to sit in that, don't we? Well, let me make it even messier. Yeah, do it. I'm not her first husband. And we have scripture that talks about that, you know, there's a whole scripture that talks about, you know, I can't remember where it's at. Well, if the husband passed away and she married the brother and that brother passed away and she married the other brother, like, whose spouse is she in heaven? Well, is there marriage in heaven? Right. There's not. Right. Because that's my whole point. Christ is married to the church. Correct. But that's, but when you go down this road, it gets muddy really fast. Yeah. And that's my point, is that if you start to listen to and hear what people say, even, and they don't mean to be wrong, they don't mean, they're just trying to comfort you the best they can. But if you start to go down that path, you can find yourself in hard spots and unrealistic spots and untruthful spots really quick. And so you've got to come back to the Word. You've got to come back to what God says about these things and understand who God is, which is the purpose of this podcast today was, you know, Michael was trying to find out who God really was. And here I am in the same spot experiencing the first, first real tragic death in our whole family. And I'm like, man, God, this doesn't make sense. You know, who are you in the, in the middle of all of this? And, and I have to go to scripture about the fact that God is just. Man, I used to think that I was the judge of all. Oh man, I was, it was bad. Me too. And I was born that way. I remember as a little kid being so angry at the drunk next door that I wanted to take him out because of what he was doing to his family and kids. Now that's a real thing that really happened. I was young. I mean, seven, six, I was young and I experienced that anger towards injustice, wrong. And so imagine that kind of a kid growing up and having experienced a lot of other injustices, you know, I have felt about certain individuals and things like that. Man God's had to work me over in those areas. But God is just. And vengeance is mine, saith the Lord. And man, God's had to help me in that. Man God's had to help me in that. But then God is grace. Oh my goodness, if He wasn't, where would we all be, right? So I wrote something down this morning, really for my own self. God is just, you and I are going to be shocked when we get to heaven and see who's not there. It's true. It's right. It's true. God is just. And there are people who are going to show up at the gate and he's going to say, I didn't know you. Yeah. That's fact. That is a fact. And then I wrote, and then I wrote, God is grace. And then I wrote beside it, I said, you and I are going to be surprised when we get to heaven and be like, you made it! The people are there. Oh man, that's good. That's good. So, so when you balance those two perspectives of who is God, God is just, God is full of grace and we can leave the grace and the justice up to God. I know, you know, for me, I'm really trying to learn to live in that space. Michael asked the question, well, no, Michael made the statement, God wasn't who I thought he was. the place you're in right now with experiencing the deep loss of Michael Do you agree with that statement or Is God who he's always been to you? He's just taking you down a different, you know on a new journey on a painful journey Think Michael helped me get there during the vetting process. I think you just admitted to putting walls up and kind of downplaying your grief and pain, right? I think I had done that my whole life. What I didn't know was that I was a pretty angry little kid and didn't know where that came from. And through the vetting process and Michael taking me to the hard places in my life where I had to say, ìOkay, God, what do you want to do with this?î Iíve never really dealt with being raised by a single mom. Iíve never really dealt with the abandonment of a dad. Iíve never really dealt with some of these other issues in my life. because we wanted something so good, it enabled me to really seek God in those places. And I think if you understood my version of image, like I've always had an image problem where, you know, I wanted to be great at everything, wanted to be good at everything, and I was always worried about what people thought of me. So imagine this guy who's so worried about his image has to have the divorce tag on him crushed me, just destroyed me. Because I had all these aspirations of maybe being a college president. My former wife and I, we started a Christian school. We had done a lot of things in the Christian school movement. I had all these aspirations of my children being the next generation of Christ followers and doing all these amazing ministry things. And you see these families who, just seems like God's all over and they just generation after generation just doing amazing things. And so I had all these aspirations and when that whole world comes crashing down and you realize that you're just a fallen human being, you know what I mean? Man, that's hard to come face to face with. And Michael and I did that journey together because she was a Christian who was going through a terrible hard divorce. And we both had done this publicly and it was miserable and awful. And so we both have image problems. I know she went through the same thing. And God was coming in alongside of us and saying, no, no, no, I'm not done with you yet. I'm going to restore you. I'm going to help you. I'm going to guide you. So to answer your question, I definitely had a major growth in the area of who God was. that He created me despite failures, despite sins, despite even a failed marriage, that He still created me for purpose, that He still had a plan for me. know that I've always allowed Him to fully work out those things in my life, to fully help me realize who I am in Him and not just the image of who I thought I was or who I wanted to be. That ultimately I'm a child of God, that I still have purpose, I still have meaning. He's not done with me. Well, it's interesting. You talk about the deception within the faith community. You talk about how people are like, I'm going to make you feel better by saying this person gained their angel wings when they really didn't. And I'm going to make you feel better by saying she's with you and all the things. And it's interesting, you just said you know that God has a plan, right? And God has a purpose for us. But I think as Christians before we even go through all these hard things, we assume that God's plan is my plan. I want to be successful. And so that's God's plan. Sure. And I want to have a successful family. I want to be a Jonathan Edwards who, who, you know, a Christian upon Christian upon Christian upon Christian, pastors and evangelists and all these things. But maybe that's not God's plan. Like it's, and you'd think like, well, God, wouldn't that be your plan? But what's so interesting about all this is then death hits us in the face, right? The hard things of life hit us in the face. And I almost wonder if when we turn away and we deconstruct our faith, if, and this is a bold statement, but I wonder if when we go and deconstruct that our faith didn't have the depth that we thought it had to begin with. I wanted to do this and My building caught on fire. And so now my business is sunk. Like what are you doing? You know, I wanted this great marriage a 25 year anniversary and I only had two years, you know, right? right, oh I've definitely I've definitely experienced that where They were good plans. They weren't wrong plans. In fact, there was a lot of ministry aspects, there's a lot of pieces to them that, you know, I was like, well, why wouldn't this be God's plan, right? So I've definitely walked that path, but, um, hmm. Well, and how does, how does growing up in that way, saying like, okay, God, I think your plans are my plans and we're good, and then being smacked with losing Michael yeah, my favorite Bible story or characters Joseph and Not that God's given me this grandiose thing that you know some dream of you know Brothers and sisters bowing down and worshiping me nothing like that, but but my the reason why he's my favorite Bible character is God did speak to him, God did use him, but ultimately God allowed him to go through, man, so much stuff. And everything he went through was preparing him for something, right? So when you can follow the life of Joseph or even David, man, David had to go through a bunch of stuff as a kid, you know, isolation, you know, fighting off lions, and then ultimately God uses him. But then he has Saul try to kill him as a teenager, like running around with a spear trying to kill this kid. And he had to go live out in the field and in the caves and like, man, like really? But every single one of those hard thing, God was preparing him. God was allowing him to go through these things. And so when you think about our lives, some of our lives are not that bad. In comparison to what, to what God allowed these people to go through, which I have a lot of thoughts on that. But I'll just throw one out. What is the hardest thing you've ever had to go through? And why did God allow you to go through it? What is he preparing you to do in the future? And so, here's my thought. Take it however you want. The harder the things, the bigger the task. Ooh, that's good. I don't know, that's just me off the cuff. Is the evidence there that that's true 100% I agree Yeah, I totally I totally agree in that you know as we conclude this podcast. I think the overarching theme here has been Sometimes if we're honest as Christians as believers for a long time. We're like alright God. What are you doing Lord, right? You're not who we thought you were. God, why would you give this to that person? Like, and not that person. Why would you, you know, Curtis, I heard a story of a lady in one of my wife's mom's groups who lost five children in a row. Like, what? Why couldn't you spread them out? You know, like, to different people. You know what I mean? Like, why take Michael and Curtis when they're on this spiritual high and they can do so much for the kingdom and start all these amazing businesses and like, you know, serve other people and what a friend she was to people. Why? Why? You know, and what's interesting about this is we don't have the answer. Like I think the energetic charismatic will come up and say, well, it's the Lord's will. It's like, oh, okay. Got it. Cool. That's nice. But we don't have the answer. But there is something that I want to share with you. I'm going to pull it up right now. I sent this to my sister-in-law, Jasper's mom. And I was like, I don't have the answers. This is the best answer I have. So someone posted this and I saw it and I was like, this is unbelievable. I want to read this. I would have pulled Joseph out, out of that pit, out of that prison, out of that pain, and I would have cheated nations out of the one God would use to deliver them from famine. I would have pulled David out, out of Saul's spear-throwing presence, out of the caves he hid away in, out of the pain of rejection, and I would have cheated Israel out of a God-hearted king. I would have pulled Esther out, out of being snatched from her only family, out of being placed in a position she never asked for, out of the path of a vicious, power-hungry foe, and I would have cheated a people out of the woman God would use to save their very lives. And I would have pulled Jesus off, off the cross, off the road that led to suffering and pain, off the path that would mean nakedness and beatings, nails and thorns. And I would have cheated the entire world out of a Savior, out of salvation, out of an eternity filled with no more suffering and no more pain. And oh friend, I want to pull you out. I want to change your path. I want to stop your pain. But right now, I know I would be wrong. I would be out of line. I would be cheating you and cheating the world out of so much good. Because God knows. He knows the good this pain will produce. He knows the beauty this hardship will grow. He's watching over you and keeping you even in the midst of this. And he's promising you that you can trust him, even when it all feels like more than you can bear. So instead of trying to pull you out, I'm lifting you up. I'm kneeling before the Father and I'm asking him to give you strength, to give you hope. I'm asking him to protect you and to move you when the time is right. I'm asking him to help you stay prayerful and discerning. I'm asking him how I can best love you and be a help to you And I'm believing he's going to use your life in powerful and beautiful ways Ways that will leave your heart grateful and humbly thankful for this road. You've been on That's good, man man, my heart my head just exploded with thoughts about raising kids and How many times we jump in because we don't want them to have to do something hard or, you know, we see them struggling with something and instead of letting them learn a lesson, we jump in and just do it quick because we're impatient and want it over with, right? Yeah, that's true. And they didn't learn a thing or we see somebody about to go into some really hard things and we want to rescue them and man yeah my brain just exploded with that. Well the question is and we've brought this up before, would the Run to the Heart podcast exist as a ministry, as a help to others in grief, as a resource, if God would have healed Michael No You know Michael would have kept helping people yeah helping her friends helping those ladies who needed her but Yeah, it'd be different And we have no idea what what this is gonna turn into No, we have no idea And we're putting it in God's hands and we're like, Lord, do with this what you will do with it. And we're just trying to let this be a spirit-led conversation of just two dudes who are being real about grief and about experiencing it and seeing in other people's lives. And we have questions and we're questioning God, just like the person grieving is questioning God. Right. exists in the authority of Scripture and in trust in Jesus. And that's what we point people back to. I think that if we could go back in time, you and Michael are on Mackinac Island just weeks before her diagnosis, and if you were to fast forward now, and God would be like, Curtis, I'm gonna take her, but we're gonna build a ministry out of it. I mean, what would you have said? Man. Hmm. Well, I would have said what I said on her deathbed, you know. I don't really like this Lord, but ultimately I belong to you and that I trust you and that your will be done. I mean, I would have said it, I probably wouldn't have liked it. Well, our human brains probably go to, well Lord, she's helping people already. We're good. Right. Yeah, but that also reminds me of just keeping eternal purpose. Like, why would I have to, I actually have to tell myself this on a regular basis. Why would I ever want to rob my son of heaven? Yeah. It forces us to have an eternal perspective. Yeah. No, no. That's good, man. That's good. Do you mind praying us out of this episode? Sure. Let's do it, man. Oh, man, Lord. First of all, we just want to tell you that we're grateful of who you are and that we don't have all the answers but Lord we worship a God who does. You have given us your word. You've given us men and women throughout the word who have shown your power through them. You have shown us over and over and over, Lord, men and women in Scripture who have quite honestly done way harder things than we have. And you showed us why you allowed them to go through those things. And as I read those stories now, Lord, I'm reminded that your plans are so much bigger than ours and that your purpose is so much bigger than ours but Lord ultimately your purpose is that we would know you that we would serve you that we would bring as many as we possibly can to you that we can all gather around your throne to worship you forever and ever and ever Lord continue to help me to understand that to know that to live that out every single day as I come alongside people who have gone through the same hurt, the same hard. Help Chris and I both. Lord, he's been through some stuff, his family's been through some stuff. Lord, as he's working through his things, as his family's working through these things, help us to both gain eternal perspective to know what it is that we're trying to do and that Lord, you would keep us focused on that. And that is to run into our own heart and find you and meet you there and let you heal and work in us and show yourself true and faithful in our own lives so that ultimately, Lord, we can run into others' heart and not be afraid of it, not be squeamish about it, not be apologetic for it, but to be able to go in headlong, pointing people to you, helping them to heal right where they're at, not expecting anything more or less. Lord, that's what we feel like you're calling us to do. It's what you helped her be able to talk about and explain and give us kind of the blueprint and the formula of what it is that we're supposed to be doing. So Lord, help us to do that. Help those who listen to us right now, Lord. I know, man, I know there's some people struggling. They're telling us their story. There's people asking all of these questions who are numb, insecure. They're insecure, they're struggling financially, they're struggling spiritually, they're struggling emotionally. And so Lord come alongside these people. Lord ultimately we want to honor you and give glory to you in the hardest times and in the hardest places and believe and trust that you are still God, you are still on the throne, you're still doing a mighty work, and that you want to share eternity with us. What an amazing thought. Lord, thank you for who you are, what you're doing, what you're going to do. We ask these things in your name. Amen. Amen. All right, man. We're going to conclude this episode. so kind to share this with someone who needs it. The best way to do that is head over to ratethispodcast.com slash RTTH if you're listening to this and if you're watching this, it's down in the description. Curtis, thanks for sharing your heart with us, man, of course. Thanks for pulling some vulnerable stuff out on this end. The biggest thing is that we hope and pray that people are challenged and changed and impacted and God's glorified. Amen, yep, good stuff. All right, man. All right. All right, man. All right, man. All right, man. All right, man.

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