Ep 13: Grieving a Difficult Dad Who Didn't Believe In God

I want this to be different, Dad. I want this to be better. I want you to be a grandparent. I want you to want to be a grandparent. I want you to come around. I wish things were different than the way that they are now. My first reaction, you know, and I felt like at that moment I knew my dad was in hell. That's where my brain went to. Welcome back to the Run to the Hard Podcast, everybody. This is going to be an episode that I think everybody's going to remember because when we talk about the concept of the show in Running to the Hard, in this season, it's all about running to the hard questions and really uncovering life after loss as we all run to the heart together as a community. And so I'm really excited to have a conversation with my best friend, Josh Delph today. And so first and foremost, Delph, welcome to the show, man. We're excited to have you. Yeah, thank you for having me. It's an honor to be here. Yeah, man, so I know you've been listening to the podcast and the fact of the matter is that it's become more relevant than ever for you, this show, because you've experienced grief yourself, and this is fresh, this is super new. And to be honest with you, man, as people see the title of this podcast, I mean, it is a really impactful topic. I think what people are gonna think is coming from this is just, okay, what was the story with your father and but I also think that we're gonna go a different direction today because to each their own everybody has their own story but we're gonna go a different direction today man and so first and foremost who was your dad let's start there yeah my dad he was you know unique in his own his own way. I would definitely say that you know he He and I's relationship is always confusing and challenging, you know growing up especially in in childhood You know he seemed to have Really good relationships outside of me and him which was really hard to look at you know He had good relationships with friends Even good relationships with other family members, but when it came to me and him, it was like there was none left. For him, he loved to be surrounded by friends rather than family. Honestly, growing up, that was just the kind of person that he was. He wasn't really around very much, wasn't present at all. He just wanted to be with friends and wanted to hang out at bars, and that was kind of what he was all about. So I asked you who your dad was, and typically when we lose somebody, all we can think about is the best things about them. When we lose somebody, it becomes, oh wow, I really can't even think of the bad things. But what's interesting about this conversation, Josh, is that you're grieving a relationship you never had with him because he was never the man that you expected him to be. Is that fair to say? That is definitely fair to say. Yeah, I always had this persona or this image, right, of what a dad should be. You know, and I was really big into movies and TV shows as a kid. It was a big outlet for me and when it came to him, he never fulfilled what that image looked like. He was always very surface level with emotions. He was very blank, harsh with his words, but to some sense, you know, he just, it was almost like he was incapable of getting to that place where he could even begin to fulfill that expectation of what a true dad really is, you know. And I wish it would have been different, you know, growing up, but God puts us through these things and we can't even fathom really what that why is behind. You just have to put one foot in front of the other and just keep going. Josh, I'm going to ask you to allow us to be a fly on the wall at the point in time where you received the news that your dad had passed away. I want to express this is just an ordinary day and stress the importance of what can happen in a split moment. I'm out there just tossing a ball with Eli as kind of wrapping things up and Brittany comes outside and I could tell something was wrong. Then she said, Josh, your dad was found dead. And a typical reaction you think you would have is pure sadness. And quite honestly, I didn't feel that. I didn't feel anger. It was almost like a shell. It was a traumatic experience, so you just kind of blocked out. But I feel like I was very aware in that moment. I wasn't in shock. I looked at Brittany and she was really upset. She knew the relationship struggles that I had with my father. That made her more sad because I wasn't sad. my first thought to God was, God, He's yours now, almost like He's yours now to deal with, in a sense. And now it's time to reap what He sowed on this planet, and it's time for Him to answer for all of the wrongdoings that He's done to me and that He's done to others. And while I feel like that is wrong to go there, that's just where my headspace was. And I don't think that that was the right headspace to be in. Those feelings regulated, obviously, over time, because I definitely don't feel that way now, now that I've had time to pray and hone in on some of the grief, a different kind of grief, I'll say. But that was my first reaction, you know. And I felt like at that moment, I knew my dad was in hell. You know, that's where my brain went to. Dude, dude, that's so deep. You're just laying out your raw emotion and how you felt in that moment when you got the news that your dad was gone. And I'm picking up little pieces of what you just said. And one of the things that you insinuated was that, you know, now God was going to deal with him. And I'm sure someone's listening to this now like, that's so judgmental. First off, what do you say to that person? I would say, you know, you would have to be able to experience what I've experienced to even have that kind of thought process. What I meant with Deal with him was, I'd spent the better part of my last year trying to have those conversations with my dad. And I think that those conversations would be a lot easier to have with me than the creator of the universe. And so that's what I mean by deal. Even to that point, the reality is we all know that death happens to everybody, whether you're a believer or you're not a believer. We all know that we all die because the evidence is mounting, Father Time is undefeated, and it happens all the time. But what's interesting about what you're saying is, like, this actually goes back to a gospel conversation. It's – we have a choice here, right, which is we can allow Jesus to atone for our sins by accepting the free gift of salvation, or we can atone for our sins after this life. And that's the juxtaposition. And I don't even want you to soften the deal with him part because that's a reality. And before we even started the show, I told you, I was like, dude, we're gonna go to some really hard places because it's real. I'm not just asking these questions to ask you these questions. I'm asking you these questions because you told me before this podcast, you're like, dude, the only thing I want people to get out of this is I want them to see death is real and there are people who are not ready, and our loved ones who are not saved, we are so fearful about having those conversations with them and the window of opportunity, like, ah, this is so harsh to say, but the window of opportunity for your dad is closed. Yep. Yeah, absolutely, and in that moment when I found out that my dad had passed away, it was a true battle with myself. And again, my headspace was not in the right place. So I had those rush of feelings, and again, it wasn't anger, it was, and I'm not a big fan of this term, but it is what it is, like this is the reality, this is what you've chosen. This is what you've chosen over many of conversations, you know? And I think in very much the same way of what you're just talking about, Chris, is when we're talking about being bold and getting to these people before it's too late to get them to know Jesus or a loved one. You resist that urge to be bold, right? You're fighting against it. You're battling yourself versus actually battling a better relationship with that person. So really you're doing yourself an injustice, right? You're putting a wall in between something that you should be able to bust through and then you get to the hard and you run to that person and you ask them the hard questions. That's where true change is going to happen. Whether it's with yourself, with the other person, or both, with God, you know, it's such a good moment to have and to not have that, you're doing yourself an injustice. I know someone's listening to this and they are in a place where, you know, let's go this direction. Let's say I have a parent or a family member, someone who I want so badly to find a relationship with Jesus and they're not gone, but the trajectory that they are on, like, when they pass away, you're just, I don't want to think about it, oh my goodness, I know that they didn't have a relationship with God. What do you say to that person who the window of opportunity is still open for their loved one? I'll say the one thing that I think is really important. It's more than just words. It's more than finding the right thing to say. And I think for a lot of Christians and myself included, you know, our natural gut instinct is because we're so excited, right? Especially if you're on fire for Jesus, you're so excited and you want someone to experience what that relationship is like with God. So you have that burn and you want to get someone to just join you and embrace something that you love, you cherish. I think when you have someone that's so out of touch with that thought of religion, it goes more than just words. I can relate this back to my grandfather, who you know I was extremely close with. He passed less than a year ago as well. Been fighting that grief on my own too with my family, obviously. He was a patriarch in our family. He wasn't a very outspoken person. He was a Christian, but dude, he was just always there. He was present, you know, and I think having just that alone with some of the people that we're trying to change our relationship with, being present, they're going to pick up on certain things. How we talk, how we act, how we develop relationships, they pick up on that stuff. And you're not just preaching to them, saying, you know, do you believe in God yet? Do you believe in God yet? Or come to my side, you know. And while those conversations are important, I think that being present is just as important as the words that you say. What you're talking about is the fruits of the Spirit, right? Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, gentleness, faithfulness. Christians, we are known by our fruit, right? The Bible says you will know them by their fruit. Christians who are Christians by name, but not by action, we don't see the fruit. And in the Bible, Jesus says, I will cut that vine. I will literally slice that vine off because there's no fruit. And so what you're saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, what you're saying is that those of us who are on fire for God, maybe you're a new Christian and you're just like, oh man, I need my family to see this. And they're not believers. Maybe you have been a Christian for quite some time, but you know the truths of God's word, but you have this disconnect with your family, right? You guys won't go there. You're constantly just on the surface. You mentioned your dad always stayed on the surface. I remember that about him. I like deep conversations, you know. So we went kayaking and he did just stay on the surface. And I think a lot of people stay on the surface because beneath the surface is where the real is. It's where the Holy Spirit convicts Christians. It's where our conscience actually starts to kind of wake up a little bit for those that aren't believers. And so I love the lesson there. What you're saying is, be present, show the fruits of being a Christian to those people. What would you say to somebody who has not lost their person? They feel like they have already blown it. I'm a Christian, but they've seen me lose my mind. They've seen me, they've seen the worst parts of me, and so I don't feel like I can even show them. I'm a Christian. Hmm That's a good question, I think it's important to realize Not being ashamed of the God that you serve is so much more important than Facing a hard conversation with someone that you want to mend that relationship with. Don't be ashamed of who you serve, and don't be afraid to say to that person, I was wrong by what I did, by how I talked to you. I was wrong in this circumstance. Look what God did to me. Look where he took me from where I was five, ten years ago to where I'm at now. He's changed me. Having that conversation is extremely important. Again, God calls us to not be ashamed to serve Him. While it may be a difficult conversation to have, most people steer away from that. You mentioned that earlier. My dad was one of those people. He was afraid to go down underneath that surface and have those conversations. Why do you think he was afraid because to some extent he was ashamed of the dad that he was to me growing up. And I think he honestly, you know, now that I'm really thinking about this in depth, I think that he saw the trajectory that my life was going in and he didn't want to screw that up. If you could go back in time and look hindsight is 20-20. And so sometimes this is a hard question. I'll preface this question with saying like I know that you've had spiritual attacks since your dad's passing and things in your head that have been like you should have talked to him more, you should have this, you should have that, right? That's a lie from the enemy, okay? But the whole purpose of you being on the episode today is to move someone else into action. And so I do wonder, what would you have changed about your approach if you could go back in time? Yeah, look, we're all human. I think that it's a very natural state to be in when you've lost a loved one. Could I have done anything differently to help my dad in some way? I can sit here and say that I felt guilty. I don't think guilty is the right word now that I would have, I would have done more in some way. You know, and I mentioned earlier the power of presence and look, you know, I'm an hour, hour and 10 minutes away from my family and I didn't necessarily make myself present over the last 10 years, you know, over the phone, over Facebook, you know, things like that. And something that I was recently told, you know, in discussions with Brittany about this topic, and she's shed some great wisdom onto me, was that, look, he's your father and you are his son. At the end of the day, he should be the one that initiates that. He should be the one that wants to know his kids, wants to know his grandkids. He's the dad. And then she related it to me and my relationship with my children. And it's like, you know what? You're absolutely right. Sure, I hold some accountability as a son and as a Christian. Take the son aspect out of it, but as a Christian, you know, I think that we have some responsibility and due diligence there to make that effort and go that extra mile. But at the end of the day, he was my dad, and he had only been to my house maybe twice in the ten years that we've And he's probably only text me 10 times in 10 years. 10 separate conversations. We've probably only talked on the phone less than five times, you know. So there's a lot there. And if I can kind of like unpeel that a little bit. At first glance, that is true. But this kind of tees me up for the conversation about our prayer life towards those that are unsafe. Because you have the gift of the Holy Spirit in you as a Christian. You have the fruits of a Christian in you. And so naturally, God's gonna convict you to take action on X, Y, and Z. Your dad did not. And so, let's talk about prayer life. Is it fair to say that although your dad should have been the one to reach out to you more, really the only thing you can do actionably, because he was so closed off. The only thing you can do accidentally and someone else can do is just pray that God would soften the soil. Yeah, absolutely. Those prayers, and you mentioned that, those prayers was definitely had over the years. Prayers that was documented in journals and thoughts and even prayers, you know, in our our weekly, you know, Bible studies when we've met in basketball, we've prayed about that as a group before. Absolutely. Yeah. Let me ask you a tough question. How do you reconcile with God for time running out on dad, even though you prayed those prayers? Well, I think it's important to humble yourself and not feel that you did everything that you possibly could because there's no way that anybody could do that. So I think it's important you humble yourself first and realize you could have done more in some way, form or fashion, whatever that looks like. Asking God to put another situation like that in your life, another uncomfortable conversation to have with somebody, and to help you rise above maybe what you couldn't do in that first circumstance, then maybe you can triumph in the second one, and the third one, and the fourth one. Because let's be honest, this isn't the first time and the only time that this is ever going to happen in my life. You know, I mean, just a few weeks after that, I almost experienced, you know, something else, you know, in a much deeper circumstance, you know, with my wife. And those same feelings, did I do it? Did I have these conversations? Did I truly know my wife the way that I thought that I did? You know, those things that come into your head, you know. So that would be my kind of conversation with God and reconcile, you know, with maybe the relationship that you wish that you would have had and what you could do differently. You have to look into God's Word. What does God say about these types of situations? I mean, there's plenty of examples in the book. And what does God have to say about it, so 1 Corinthians 3, 6-7 says, I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything but only God who makes things grow. And so, as you say that, although the enemy could be throwing so many different negative thoughts in your mind, or someone listening to this who's like, you know what, I had an unsaved family member who passed away, I should have done more, I could have done more. God has different thoughts. And it's, yes, we should be proclaiming the gospel, however, like, it's not a sales pitch. It's not a sales pitch. It's not how good I am at communicating this. We are all called to be, you know, understanding how to defend our faith, but it's not a sales pitch. Either the soil is ready or it is not. And what's interesting about this conversation as we think about having that gospel-centered conversation with people is, yeah, it's super uncomfortable, but the reality is the quicker we realize that it's not us and how we communicate that message, and it's really if God is going to soften the soil and allow them to receive it, I mean, the better off we're going to be in actually having those conversations. Yeah, 100%. And that goes back to the Fruits of the Spirit conversation that we were having earlier. I feel like that if you let God plant those seeds and water it, just like what you mentioned, and the way of displaying, you know, presence versus always just using your mouth. I think that that is a huge way of letting God inject himself into that situation and his presence be made known, not just our presence with that person that we are seeking this relationship with. Yeah, man, so good. I do a lot of prayer journaling. And recently I was just like, man God, I just feel empty. And I started prayer journaling and I was like, God, would you just give me an opportunity to be bold for you today? And I ended my prayer journal and just went on with my day. And it wasn't like an hour later, it was like 10 o'clock in the morning or something like that and I was like, man, I'm hungry, I have a book day all the way till five, like I should probably get something to eat. And so I was like, okay, I'm gonna go to Chipotle. I never go to Chipotle at 10 a.m. So weird, right? They had just opened. Yeah, I go through the line and I go towards the drink station. I see this kid who's sitting there kind of staring out the window who has a Chipotle shirt on. I guess he hadn't started his shift yet. And he was just like staring out the window. And he looked like he was really thinking. And God was just like, talk to him. I was like, what? No! Like, I don't know this dude. And he's like, talk to him. And I just kept fighting with God. And so I'm ruffling with the straws, just trying to like waste time, you know, like get up, get up, get up. I wanted him to get up. I did not want to have this conversation with him. And I even walk outside, get in my car, turn it on, and I'm about to drive away. And God's like, you need to go in and talk to him. All I could think about was that. And I'm always thinking of work. I was like, okay, Lord, whatever. Like, this is nuts. So I put my Chipotle bag down, turn off the car, walk inside, he's still sitting there. He's like scrolling his phone now. And I went back to the drink station, trying to buy time, and I was like, oh, what the heck. So I sit next to this dude, and I turn, and I'm like, hey man, how are you? And he's like, good, how are you? I was like, good. Would it be crazy if I told you that God told me that I should have a conversation with you? And he was like, hmm. He was very closed off at first. Yeah. And I was like, ah, see, Lord. So we started talking and I was like, okay, so is there anything I could pray for you about? You know, like I'll get up and walk away. I promise I'm not some weirdo that does this all the time. I just really felt like I should do this. And he goes, he goes, well, now that you say that, he's like, my mom was just diagnosed with, with colon cancer. I was like, dude, I'm so sorry. You know, so we started talking about that. Right. It was a solid 20, 30 minute conversation to make a long story short, the middle of the conversation, we're going over like apologetics and stuff. I'm giving him reasons to, you know, see that we're not all just going to turn to fertilizer. And he goes, why does this always happen to me? I was like, why does what always happen to you? He goes, yeah, you're the sixth Christian this year to randomly approach me about God. And I was just like, wow, bro, how many more Christians need to stand in front of you for you to get the picture that God wants a relationship with you." And he was like, yeah, I guess that's a good question. I share that story to tell you that I prayed for boldness. God gave me an opportunity literally that day, which I don't do this a lot, okay? I'm an introvert. I don't talk to you unless you talk to me. And I realized when I walked away, I was so full, man. I realized when I walked away, I was like, I was one of the seeds. I was one of the seeds. God convicted me and he convicted the other five people before me in the same year to try to reach this kid. And that's a perfect example of God tells us, hey, it's not you, but I will keep calling believers. I will keep convicting their hearts to say, hey, put this message in front of people and I will, I will soften the soil or I will harden it. And so, yeah, I was thinking about it because I was, because there's so many people where we're just like, man, we, we know, we know they're not safe. Like, if we're just being real, we know they're not saved. And we know that life and death is real. And we know that death happens. And when it's over, it's over. Like, the window is closed. Absolutely. Yeah, that's an interesting point. When you talk about the windows or the doors being closed, and you have to realize that that is a possibility with every single person that you have a relationship with. It's real. Death is real. And even if it takes you to have a conversation with somebody at Chipotle, be bold in that and lean into it and try not to fight that urge. That's a great understanding. Even though what's funny is, at this point, I feel like you have that initial rush feeling of wanting to bring people to know God. And then it kind of levels out, and then it kind of dulls over time. And then when you kind of get yourself into this experience category, it's just funny that you still fight with yourself to have that conversation. It happens to everybody. So it's so natural to have that. Even the disciples, they were the closest ones to the Creator of the universe. They could reach out and touch Him. Even those people still fought what we're fighting today. And it's just an interesting concept. And it's going to be something that's going to be continued to be fought after we're long gone. It's not going away. That's the internal battle. Yeah. No, dude, you're so spot on. When we are fearful to have that conversation with people about God and like really go beneath the surface. Like we were meant to have these conversations. But when we're fearful to do that, something I try to remember is that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Every one. No matter how much you hate God, no matter how much you hate the idea that there's a God that isn't God over your life, no matter how much you hate the idea that Christianity is true, every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus is Lord. And I try to remember that, because when the window is closed and it's too late, they will wish that I would have clawed at them to make sure they knew the truth. Absolutely. And I think that, and I'll kind of pull this from Screwtape Letters. Have you ever read Screwtape Letters by C.S. Lewis? No. You got to read it. So good. So Screwtape Letters, the general idea here is that the book is written from a demon in hell who is basically consulting a man on earth's demon. The whole entire book, every single chapter by chapter by chapter, is like, don't go too extreme here. If this person is going to be a believer, make sure that there's no fruits. Make sure that they're distracted. Make sure that they're just that and the other. And so, yeah, Screwtaped Letters, it's a fantastic book by C.L. Seuss. You've got to read it. It's a pretty fast read, too. So the reason I bring up Screwtaped Letters is because pretty much the idea was that the demon would deceive the man on earth until he finally died and distract him the entire way. And so when I think about this powerful concept of every knee will bow and every tongue will confess, God wants us to remember that and have our minds fixated on an eternal mindset. And the devil is just like, nope, get too busy with work, get too busy with all of these different things that you're trying to do to the point where you can't even shift your brain to see how important it is for us to continue to have these conversations. So yeah, just in this moment, as I'm breathing this out with you, it convicts me to just remember, man, it's so important to be in the Word and it's so important to continually fix our eyes on God in these times because there are lost people and Jesus is the answer. Absolutely. And also too, I think, and this relates to what you're talking about, I didn't bring God into my heart and into my life and dedicate myself to Him until after high school. So some people may say that's early, some people may say, oh, you've had a little bit of experience before you became a believer. But I had a lot of, growing up in the childhood that I was at, I had a lot of neglect, physical, mental abuse, loneliness, fearfulness, and even with all of that hurt, and all of that almost like injustice. No child should have to go through some of the stuff that I went through. And come out of that on the other side and I still wanted that relationship, you know, with my dad. Even through all of the hurt. And to think, I wasn't a Christian. I wasn't saved. I mean, you knew me as a kid, you know when I got into high school I didn't even know who Adam and Eve were and one of our conversations I had no idea I made fun of you and you made fun of me. Yeah, right Great Christian. I'm just kidding. Exactly So what I'm saying is even know that you don't know who God is I didn't know God still had a plan for me and that's important for all the listeners to realize is, even if this person that you're trying to mend this relationship with, and all of us could probably think of somebody, God still has a plan for that person. It comes down to, are they going to lean in and are they going to want to better themselves? Because we've heard it before, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink, right? We know that, you know, that metaphor. And it does, it does really make sense. And it relates to life because you have to make that choice. You have to make that decision, you know, to want, to want to do more, to want to go better, to want to go beneath that service. Have those hard conversations and look at yourself versus looking at what everybody else is doing or getting so distracted like what you just mentioned. To have that that poise and to have that that wisdom to turn and look at yourself and say what can I do better you know to affect someone else's life. You know that that all goes back to being bold and it goes back to my day in the in that backyard you know when I found out that my dad had passed. That was an internal fight, you know, with myself. And you're going to have those moments, you know, throughout life, you know, and we're called to rise above that. So out of anything that what I just talked about, and I really want to hone in on this, you know, just because you haven't confessed with your tongue, you know, that Jesus is Lord. That doesn't mean that he still doesn't have a plan for you. He does. And no matter how defeated and alone that you may feel, be bold and find peace that God is always with you. Yeah, man. Amen. Amen. This is a good conversation, man. I mean, like, here's the surface. We're like way down here, man. But it's so important. We're answering some of the – and let me be clear. We don't have all the answers. And what's interesting about even the unbeliever and us is that the minute that we don't think there's an authority above us, our life falls into shambles, whether you are a believer or an unbeliever. As a believer, you know God, but you don't live like he's above you in authority and you don't trust him. Your life falls apart. You're not a believer at all, and you don't think there's an authority above yourself. Your life falls apart. Your life absolutely falls apart. And so, what we're trying to get across here is, like, pleading with people, because of the experience that you have, is that there is a real eternity. And the Bible is true. And the Christian teachings on salvation mean that there is a heaven and there is a hell, and the only way is Jesus. And you and I know that, but there are people listening to this who believe that, but they have loved ones who don't believe that, and their eternal destination is heading in the wrong direction. have that conversation enough because our eyes are fixed on all the things that distract us like I mentioned previously. So let's talk about God's justice. This is hard. This is hard. The Bible says that the window is closed and you won't see your dad again? I've wrestled with that very thought for the last two months every single day. I got called by the detective, you know, that was handling my dad's case. I needed to go there. I'm the only child. I had to go to my grandmother's house. And I had the option to not see my dad in the position that he was in. They gave me that option, or I could go and see my dad for the last time in flesh. So I chose to go see my dad. It was sudden. It was sudden, yes. Yeah, it wasn't something where you guys were planning on it. No, nope, it was sudden. And I walk out to the garage where he had passed, and I just kind of look around. I'm looking, you know, for any inkling that he may have fell or that he tripped and fell, hit his head on something, and there was nothing like that. It was very much like he had gotten tired, something had happened, and he just sat down, kind of leaned up against the cabinets, and almost like he just fell asleep or just everything just gave out almost, you know. So I'm clinging to the hope of where I was before, whereas God, He's yours to deal with now. You've got to ask those hard questions to Him and reconcile those issues that He faced while He was on earth. To now, my headspace is in, God, I plead with you. I hope that you were able to have this last second conversation with this guy. And He's asking for you to remember Him when the hour is struck and when His last breath breathes, remember Me. And I really hope that that conversation was had. And by the looks of the way things were, you know, as a son and as a father, I hope that my dad was able to ask Jesus to come meet him in that space, and he didn't fall to what his beliefs were before. It's such a challenging moment to really describe feelings of, I mean, multiple feelings. In trying to find hope in what seemed to be a lost cause situation or a closed door opportunity, I think that when I saw him there, it definitely opened an inkling of hope. And I'm going to cling to that. Amen. Yeah, I—only God knows. Only God knows. And you know, I think that's the goodness of God. Because there's so many moments of us losing people who didn't want anything to do with God, but there's just hope that I think God instills in us, you know? Because think of it this way. There's a lot of really bad things going on in this very moment right now. There are children in other countries starving to death. You know, like very, very sad things happening. But God almost allows us to compartmentalize what happens. If God constantly showed us the pain of the world all the time, we would all be unable to function. Yeah. And so I think it's God's grace and God's goodness that he gives us those things to hold on to, to be like, I'm not saying yes, I'm not saying no, but what I'm saying is keep doing the work because this is our last chance. This earth is our last chance to share who Jesus is with people. Absolutely. And yeah, I don't know. That's just what comes to my mind. I don't know what you have on that. No, yeah, I agree with you. And I think that when people are faced with this type of situation, you know, that I ran into with my dad, there's one of two ways that you can let it affect you. You can find yourself in very dark spaces meddling in things. It can change your life. You know, one person's death can change your life. Or you can try to see it in a much different light. How do I turn what just happened, this horrible, horrific thing that just happened in my life, how do I turn that into something that excels me or accelerates me in some way to want to live better or to want to be a better person or to want to live in a much better healthy way to maybe affect the relationships around me. So good because you're perfectly teeing me up for my next question and that is that we talk about grieving your unbelieving father grieving father, but we also need to cover more what you've learned from now having to grieve the relationship that never was. Like what, you know, you have four beautiful kids. You're dad, and you're involved, I know that. How has growing up with the dad that you had impacted the way that you father your kids? Yeah, I think that from a presence perspective, I know exactly how to be there for my kids. I know how to have hard and meaningful conversations with my kids. I didn't have that growing up. I always wanted that. I didn't have a dad that was a good husband to my mom. I didn't have a dad that was a good father to to me So it's naturally it's really easy actually to want to be a better dad and want to be a better husband because I Didn't have those things growing up. So in a way he was teaching me Exactly what not to do What was your dad's reaction to you becoming a Christian? I don't think it really took him by surprise that I became a Christian. However, when that happened, he put a bigger wall in between us that he built. And once I did make that choice to become a believer, I desired a more meaningful relationship with him. Naturally, you know, it just, I started feeling this closeness with God, the true creator, our true father, and naturally, that relationship that I always desired to have with my dad just heightened and accelerated. And I wanted that so bad. And he put that wall up, and when he put that wall up, there was no desire to be involved with me or my family. And that stayed true up until his dying day. It just never changed throughout. Again, it goes back to being bold. 10 plus years since graduating college, you know, to really try to mend that relationship with him and develop it. And while we've talked about that kind of, not necessarily regret, but that feeling that I could have done more, I could have reached out, I could have gone out there, everybody has those. It almost seemed just so impossible for my dad to get into that headspace to where he would lower himself below the surface, and we've talked about this a lot, to even have that conversation. So even though I still feel like that I should have had this conversation or I should have done this or done that, it doesn't seem possible. It's like almost no matter what I did, it didn't matter. Because he had built this wall so high up, you know, that he didn't want any part of it. Knowing what you know now, if you had another conversation with him while he was here on earth, of the true afterlife. But is there anything you can think of in terms of how you would have approached the conversation, whether it would be like, oh my goodness, I should have been more intense, I should have been more consistent, I should have prayed more. Is there anything you've learned from what it is now? I would definitely say this last year to year and three months from my dad's death, I was more strategic, more bold than I had ever been in my life. And I say that because my dad always had this hold on me in some way. And some people may understand where I'm coming from with this. in some way and Some people may understand where I'm coming from with this but because of all of that childhood trauma. I Was always afraid on how my dad was going to react right and This this came from I was afraid on how my dad was going to react For the better part of my Christian walk with that relationship with him up until this last year, year and a half. And I started really navigating into different conversations with him where even if it was met with, he tried to deflect or it met with peer resistance. I still kept going. I still kept trying. And it wasn't badgering. It was, it was like, no, I want to have this conversation with you because you're my dad and Even if you're never gonna get there spiritually I still want to try and have this relationship with you and I want it to get better and I use those terms like that You know, I want this to be different dad. I want this to be better. I want you to be a Grandparent. I want you to want to be a grandparent. I want you to come around. I wish things were different than the way that they are now. And I had those conversations with him. And his- And it took you how many years to begin to have those conversations? So it took, let's see, around 13 years. Okay. You know, from the time when I graduated high school, you know, all the way up until this past year, year and a half. He had fallen down the steps and he had pinched one of his main arteries in his leg, causing circulation issues down to his foot. And he ended up having to have two of his toes amputated. This was back early last year, in 2023. And honestly, back then, I knew, I knew where this was going to go. And I knew that was his demise, was once that they amputated those toes and he was put on painkillers. I knew that that was the start of the end. Something inside of me just, just because of his addictive behavior, I knew where it was going. Let me ask you this. Let's say someone's listening to this and they're like, I'm relating with this story. This is very similar to me and my dad or me and my mom or whoever. Obviously you're praying consistently, but how consistently would you recommend somebody reach out when they feel like, man, this is this is the end? Yeah, I don't think there's no right or wrong answer. I didn't have a dad that really communicated with me even though that he was in this state He didn't tell me what was going on and I would have to reach out to him or when he was about to go into surgery And he's saying like this could be it. I think that I need to get some preparation done, you know for for this and then we would have that hard conversation, but I would be like I Think that we need to have a deeper conversation, Dad, about if something goes wrong, something happens, what does the afterlife look like? I think we need to have that conversation. Are you willing to have that conversation? And I asked it just like that. And I wouldn't say that I did it consistently because consistently portrays multiple times or on a weekly basis, a monthly basis. I can't really tell you that there's, there should be that type of consistency. I think it's more based off of the circumstances to have that. So there's something interesting about this story that I know, and that is that when your dad passed, all this was on you because you were an only child. And number one, there was no form of preparation financially or any of his assets, anything practical, which in this season of the Run of the Heart podcast, we actually cover practical grief. But I also know that because of his religious beliefs, many times funerals are like, OK, hey, we have the cross, we have this, we have that, we have prayer. And that was something that you had a really strong opinion about. So expand on that. You know, I've listened to Run to the Heart podcast on grief after the funeral. I think that was one of the episodes. And I was particularly interested in that episode because it was so different than my experience. Again, I'm the only child, and I'm a Christian, and I have, again, this perception of what a funeral should be, or a funeral should look like. Prayer, crosses, things like that. And my dad didn't want that, you know, so it almost like it was this battle like, well, do I go into what my dad wanted to do? Do I honor his wishes or do I interject my own beliefs and my own wants into this situation? It was a very hard battle to do. And luckily, and I say this, he did at least tell me, before he went into one of his surgeries, he did tell me kind of his wishes, if he was to pass away, this is what I want. He's like, I don't want anything religious, don't bring that into it. Even though I used that as an opportunity to try and bring him, you know, he wasn't having it. So he was like, just promise me religion won't be brought into it. And I was like, Dad, you know, I'll honor your wishes. You know, that was that was just what I, what I told him at the time and not really thinking seven, eight months later, I would be the ones that's planning this, you know, I mean, we all have those conversations and you never really think that it's going to happen, but it did, you know. And I've got family members that's like, let's do this, let's do that, you know, can we do this, can we do that? It's like, my dad just didn't want any of that. He wouldn't have wanted that, you know. And again, even, and I'm still battling myself of like all this, this childhood trauma still. And like, I didn't really have a relationship with this person, yet I'm the one that's, that's organizing all this stuff. And it's like, you know, so I went to the one place that consumed his life so much, which was the bar or the lounge that he associated himself with so much, and I mean, invested his life. He was there way more than he was home with me and my mom growing up. I went to them and I was like, can you guys help with some of the arrangements, you know, food or, you know, they have a decent spot to have an event. And I almost had to like, die to myself in some way, in some sense of pride to ask the very organization that almost to some degree took my dad from me for help. Because I didn't really have anywhere else to go. I mean, where do I go? I can't go to a church. You know, my dad didn't want that. Nor would family or friends. Like, you know, so it's a really awkward place to be in and it fought, again, the place that I really didn't want to associate at all with. But I did and we organized the celebration of life. I mean, I had to make some hard decisions and some weird decisions that a 33 year old doesn't typically think that they would have to fight with. But having that sense of just a family friend that's in touch with the situation and kind of understands the relationship between me and my dad or cared to try to understand and to be able to help with the process was huge. Going into that with the celebration of life, it was crazy at the amount of people that were there. Around 350-400 people showed up to the celebration of life. It just showed how many friends that my dad really truly had. Again, it was that battle with myself, like, man, you had all these friends, but the one person that's the most conflicted here is me. And I don't have this emotion that all these other people have. You know, the crying or like the sense of grief. I didn't have that. Well, your friends do. Weird place to be. You mentioned something about being at the funeral and realizing that he had more pictures with his friends than he did with you. Oh yeah. How do you like how do you how do you process that? Because you're not alone in that. Like there are there people watching or listening to this and they are like whoa that would be my parents funeral. Yeah so a little bit of background on this question here is this is stupid maybe this is just me being vulnerable and real. You know, when my grandpa had passed away, and I had pridefully told my wife, Brittany, that this is the day you'll see me the most sad. You'll never see me more sad. I was trying to achieve that with the passing of my dad. You know, like I felt like I was the shell or I almost had to be the shell and I couldn't let these emotions affect me because I was so close with my grandpa, Lorne, that my dad's death isn't going to impact me the way that it impacted me when my grandpa passed away. I wouldn't let it because I was so much closer with my grandpa than I was my dad. I would say up until this point, I was just kind of this hollow shell with all of it. Not really emotional. I'm making logical and good decisions, you know, on the affairs. And I haven't gotten emotional at all. And then it comes to the point to where I'm putting the slideshow together, you know, for the celebration of life. And, you know, we're sitting, me and Brittany are sitting at the dining room table and the kids are down in the basement and I Don't even know where the pictures are. I was like, do I even have any pictures? You know of my childhood here at the house, or do I need to contact my mom? So Brittany, you know just helping out and being the good spirit that she is She reached out to my mom and was like, hey, can you send Josh any pictures that you may have of him and his dad? and of him and his dad and she was like, I don't really have any. And initially I was like, what, what do you mean? You don't have any? So I was like, she had mentioned that she had given them to us and I was like, okay, well, they're probably down in the basement. I went downstairs, I found two albums at first, you know, sifting through some of the tubs and then brought them up. I hadn't looked at them by myself yet. I handed Brittany one and then I was kind of looking through the other and As we were both kind of flipping through I was just like Two pictures two or three pictures out of these two albums I Was like this I looked at Brittany and I was like this is All that I have to show for my childhood. That and you know with some of the Facebook pictures you know that were up there but like this this is all I have. That hit me in a way that is very hard to describe. That something like that could trigger those emotions but it was like come on so you know someone that should mean so much to you in your life, your father, your dad, and this is what you have to show for it. And I became consumed with those emotions. Brittany consoled me. You know, it was a tough time, you know? Yeah. And then she was like, look, let's keep looking. Let's go back downstairs. Let's try, you know, I'll reach out to your grandma or I'll reach out back out to your mom. We'll find something else. And thank goodness for that, because we ended up going back downstairs, we looked together, I found a few more albums, and I felt that weight lift off when we were kind of going through those. And we found a lot more pictures with us, which was good. And then battling those pictures with the ones with his friends, that was a whole different kind of feeling. How do you handle the bitterness? I wrestled with that for a long time, being bitter and being frustrated with him. And sure, over the last year, year and a half, it was frustrating not being able to get into his head and dive down into a deeper relationship and bring him to know God. But I wouldn't say I have any bitterness towards him and what he's done to me at this point. I would say I fought that at a younger age. And once I became a believer, I was able to truly forgive him for those things. And I think that should be evident in my willingness and my pursuit of trying to have that better relationship with Him, it would be easy for people to be in the circumstances that I have and to be in that hurt and to not want to have that relationship with Him. It's easy to just isolate yourself and distance yourself and not want to have those hard conversations and be bitter, but God really challenged me into this relationship and to keep wanting that. And even when people around me didn't understand why, you know, it's done this to you. Like, why, why do you want to keep going? It's like, because at the end of the day, it's your dad. You know? So, yeah. That's so good, man. So let's say that this podcast gets shared with a dad like yours. What do you say to wake them up? I think that if I could have that conversation with that person or if they're listening to this, say that your son or your daughter cares a lot more than what you think about the relationship that you guys have, good or bad. And I think that you need to realize your presence and what you say and how often you reach out to your son or your daughter. That stuff matters. And it doesn't have to be this big thing. You don't have to just show up for the big events. It comes down to these little time investments. A text message, a phone call, an ask to go to lunch or dinner, or an ask to be involved in going to the zoo or going to Kings Island or going to the museum or can I come over for Christmas? These little things like that. It comes down to that. And the little things, the little daily involvements or weekly involvements, don't shy away because of maybe something that you've done to your son or daughter in the past that you feel like you may have wronged them, don't hide from that. Acknowledge it, for one. Bring up the hurt. Bring up the hard. Because that's when true reconciliation and a true relationship can be had. Having those hard questions, or asking those hard questions, and being willing to have those hard conversations, that's just so huge, man. Because I think that if you are a person that believes that you haven't been there completely for your son or your daughter in some way, that needs to be acknowledged and it needs to be vocalized. Again, these are hard conversations to have. It's not going to be easy. And just because you acknowledge it and just because you say it, that shouldn't be met with you believing that it's going to be met with forgiveness right away or understanding right away. It's going to be met probably with some harsh and maybe some real hurt conversations. And you are going to have to invest and dive deep into that and navigate those with an open heart and an open mind and realize the overall goal. The goal is to not guard yourself from a relationship. The goal is I want a better relationship with my son or my daughter and I'm willing to have these hard conversations and I'm willing to go that extra mile and be bold and invest. And it's not about me, it's about them. Bro, that was fire. Wow. I want to ask you a question you may or may not have the answer to, and that is, how do you grieve an unbelieving father who never was, as you move forward. Yeah, for me and my grief, I think a lot of my feelings. I suppressed vocalizing how I truly felt. And as I've been grieving over the last couple of months, and this brought up conversations with Brittany this week, my wife, and all I can say is, thank God so much that I have such an amazing wife to where I can lean in and have these conversations with and not be judged and not be ridiculed because she has been the only that I have really, truly opened up to about this stuff, outside of this podcast, you know, about a lot of this. And thank God for having that. And I'm saying that because I think that we need to have that person. We need to have that one person, it's a friend, a loved one, a wife, a husband, to where it is a safe space to be able to air your anger, your sadness, your frustrations, your fearfulness, your loneliness, what you're feeling. And by no means have I been perfect through this process. You know, I don't have it figured out. But what I do think is that you got to find that person that's willing to To be that that soundboard for you and then willing to listen Josh as we conclude this episode. I mean first off man Thank you for everything. You've shared like this has been so powerful, and I know it's gonna help so many people as We conclude this episode Where is the hope? Like there's someone in your exact spot. There's someone in your exact spot. We've talked about some super heavy stuff today. Where is the hope for someone listening to this, that they can pull away from this episode? Where is the hope? I had mentioned earlier about when I had saw my dad and the position that he was in when he was found dead. And we started kind of going through some of the affairs and I was looking downstairs for documents, specifically his military records, and I ended up going down there and I thought it was just going to be a disaster because of the way the state that the house was in due to the nature of the circumstance. And I go down there and I find all the papers within just a few minutes everything that I needed But I also found this and it's it's unique and I don't know if you can actually see it But it's just so weird That my dad and who he was had a full armor of God of metal Hmm Close to his bedside. I don't want to put my faith and hope in a medal. It's not about that. But I just don't get why my dad would have a full armor of God and a pray always medal. And I'd never seen this before. And since I found this, almost on a daily basis, this this company shows up on my feed on Facebook. So when you talk about clinging to hope, when you talk about things like that, this might be, again, another Coach Curtis nugget. You know, I don't know why my dad would have this, and I don't know why that it ultimately came to be one of the things that I found out of the heap of the mess, you know, that was down there But have it with me today as a reminder of that hope that maybe again That conversation was out by jesus Amen Dude So good, man. Would you be open to sharing a way for people to contact you if they listen to this and they're like, oh my goodness, I just need to ask him questions, whether it's email or something simple? Absolutely, yeah, email would be good. What's the best email? That's my last name, so delfjoshua at gmail.com. Okay, cool man. Dude, this conversation has been so good and it's been so powerful and so spirit-led. I'm a better man because of it and I know that other people who are listening are going to feel like they got so much value from this episode. Thank you so much for being on the show. Yeah, man, I can't thank you enough. Absolutely, no, thank you for having me and thank you for what Run to the Heart stands for and the willingness to ask hard questions and dive deeper into emotions that not a lot of people are are willing to talk about. So thank you emotions that not a lot of people are are willing to talk about. So thank you for that.

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