Ep 14: Dealing With a Deadbeat Dad

Nearly 20 million children are without a father in the United States. What do we do with this information? Life after loss looks so different when you've lost your dad and he's still alive. Curtis shares his story on today's episode of Growing Up With a Neglectful Father. He shares ruthlessly practical approaches to the conversations where there's hope and there's disappointment that follows. If you are dealing with a deadbeat dad, this episode is for you. Welcome to the Run to the Heart podcast, where we're here to remind you that God doesn't promise us a life free from suffering, but he always brings healing and restoration on the other end. Our goal is to inspire you to face life's trials with courage and trust in God's plan. And oh yeah, run to the hard that God allows. Welcome back to the Run to the Hard podcast, everybody. I'm Chris Farrell, I'm here with my mentor and friend, Curtis Christopher. This episode is going to be largely a response from our last episode with Josh Delph. Because Curtis has an eerily similar story in a lot of ways. I think you guys are going to find a lot of value in this particular episode. Curtis, it's been a minute, man. How are you? I'm good. It's been good to take a little bit of time off. I think I'm ready to start unpackaging some of this stuff. But yeah, I'm good. For sure. For sure. So, first question I'm sure a lot of people have that have listened to our prior episode with Josh Delph, which, by the way, God did so many amazing things that I can't wait to share with people on this episode. Fill everybody in a little bit on exactly who Josh Delph is to you. I mentioned he's my best friend and he was a player of yours, but there's a little more there. Sure. Yeah, I'll never forget the day that I signed, actually three of ya. It was James and you and Delph, and I remember it was kind of a package deal. It was like, take all of you at once, you know. And we sat down and we had this basketball signing ceremony and getting to know you guys for the first time and figuring out your lifetime connections, your friendships. And then finding out more about Josh and realizing that you guys talked him into coming to a Christian school and he doesn't know anything about anything. I mean, he is green. And then to watch him get saved, to watch him grow in the Lord right before our eyes, like he was like a sponge in chapel, in basketball, in classes, and he was already super connective. So that wasn't the issue. He wasn't shy. He wasn't going to like just hide in the corner. He just dove headlong into this thing and you know made some mistakes along the way and we worked through those and and what a great what a great story though and then to see him find an amazing wife and start having kids and be an amazing dad and raising his family to know the Lord like it's a big deal yeah the Josh story is a big deal you're right I think I think seeing Josh's growth at OCU was super, super powerful and it has definitely shaped the man who he is today for his family. So the episode was amazing and people responded in such an incredible way. I mean, I don't know if you even know this, but there were people that literally reached out to us, told us their story, said how much they resonated with the story. There were people who were reaching out to their sons and saying, I want a better relationship with you. If that's not worth it, I don't know what is. Yeah, I know. I called him the next night and just thanked him, and we shared a little bit. I told him how proud of him I was, and we shared a little bit about our dads. But yeah, he started telling me about family members were reaching out to him. Somebody from Yugoslavia stumbled across our Run to the Heart podcast and reached out to him and told him their story. I mean, that's God. That's all God and God's just using this for whatever purpose He has. And so that's pretty awesome. Yeah So Curtis, you know, I'm all about those zinger questions. I know right so So I woke up a little bit scared and a little bit ready, you know, it's kind of both Love it. I love it. So one of the really tough questions that I asked Josh on the episode was Well, one of the things I I said was that you know the window of opportunity closes upon death for a loved one who is not a believer. And the fact of the matter is you have a very similar situation with your relationship with your dad. However, he's still alive. So, man, I'm going to ask you some tough questions today surrounding your relationship with your dad, because you're you're further along in life than Delve now, and you still haven't had a relationship with your dad. And so first off, take me to the beginning here on when did dad leave, what is that story? Hmm, yeah my wife made me dive into these stories about my dad. I hadn't talked about him in years. Believe it or not, my dad grew up in a Christian home. My grandfather was a Nazarene pastor forever. He actually was attending Bible college in Colorado Springs. It's where I was born. I was born in Colorado Springs, Colorado. And, and then Vietnam, he signs up and goes off to Vietnam. And so it's kind of weird, you know, studying for the ministry and then ended up in Vietnam. Vietnam, like so many veterans, you know, drugs and alcohol and, and women and, and the whole nine yards. And I think he just, I think he experienced it all and came back really, really a mess. And from the time he came back, my mom shares just awful stories, but was never, not just the same guy from the military for going to Vietnam, but all of the life choices just grabbed him, and women, and alcohol, and drugs. And so my mom packed my sister and I up when I was six and she was three. And seriously, we had a little red VW bug. There's still pictures of it around, but my mom packed us up with literally the shirts on our back and we had to drive away from a really bad situation. Mom never kept us from him. We would see him periodically, but he was not present. He was the typical not pay your child support dad, tried to work under the table, tried to fool the system, tried to do all the things. I mean it was it's an awful story. And so my mom, single, poor, raising two kids with with no money and without a dad to support us, it was a hard life. I mean we we struggled for years and years and and it wasn't and I've told this story way back in our pilot episode about if it wasn't for an amazing church and amazing families and people that come alongside the Christophers, I don't know where we would have ended up. Our story is so intertwined with the church and with good people in our lives because that's the dad that we had. He was in and out of our life periodically as kids, more of maybe I'm coming off of a drug high and I feel bad about my behavior and the way I've treated my family. So, you know, there'd be these moments in time where he would try to make things right and wanna hang out with us. And then there'd be these huge disappointments where he was supposed to show up and pick me up and I took the day off school and sat at home and he didn't show up for three days. And we don't know why, there was never an answer. So we, you know, it was just disappointment after disappointment. And for a little boy, it was awful. That's why I shut a lot of that off in my mind, because to go back to those moments in time as a little boy is awful. Like the heartbreak, what you feel. And then I didn't talk to him for several years. And then I remember when I graduated from high school, there was this moment where it's, yeah, probably I ought to have a relationship with my dad. And we kind of started that. I went to college and I'll never forget as a young 18, 19 year old, where when your dad says, Hey, I'm there for you. I'm sorry I wasn't there for you, but I'm here for you now. And I'll never forget the day that I picked up the phone. I was like, Hey dad, I need a couple of bucks. I, I have this bill that's due. And you know, he told me I'm there for you, man. I'm there I'm ready to be the dad that I never was and on and on and on and true story I hung up the phone, and I said he's not gonna help me. I didn't talk to him for 15 years after that phone call Yeah, whoa how old were you at that point us? 1819 18, 19. Okay. But the one time that I needed him and I was like, I need your help because you said you'd be there for me. And he couldn't do it. Couldn't do it. And it was at that moment that I was like, okay, I don't have to keep trying. I don't have to keep, you know, you can't promise something to a kid, your kid, and then not, not be able to follow through. It was, it was hard, but yeah, I don't, I don't think I've talked to him because I've gotten married, I'd had kids, I mean the whole nine yards without a dad. So that's a little bit of the background. No, that's really good, man. I want to unpack one piece of this that you just said. So I mentioned people listen to our last episode and they're reaching out to their sons, they're wanting better relationships and they're saying in this moment, hey, I want to do better, right? That happens all the time. Sure. Okay? And one of my favorite quotes, commitment is doing the thing you said you would do long after the feeling has left you, right? So you're on this emotional high. You're like, okay, I should do this, right? Maybe there's, you know, your conscience is firing. What do you say to that dad who has reached out to the son and said, okay, I'm gonna make an effort, I'm gonna be more involved. What do you say to that dad as far as, you know, next steps to like really do it? Hmm. I could say a lot on this. Do it, man, do it. I'm here for it. Wow. Let's just talk about the practical part, the financial part of taking care of your family and kids. So I'm 18, 19 years old. We've been out of that house since I was six. That's 12 years, right? 12, 13 years. Do the math. How much does one of your kids cost per year? Oh, buddy. One kid. A lot. One kid. Okay. All right. Yeah. So I've had nothing for 12 years. My dad didn't pay a dime. He didn't help us at all. So the financial responsibility, don't say you're going to help unless you really are, because the Bible also talks about restitution, making amends. And so I would just tell dads right now, don't say you're going to, unless you really are, do the math. Let's do the practical math. What do I owe that kid? What do I owe that family? What do I owe that mom? Don't you dare come in and think that you can just jump back into somebody's life and not have responsibility for restitution for all that you've kept from them. My dad should have paid for my entire college education. He should have given me a down payment for my first house. He should have bought my first car. That's what restitution looks like. So you want to get me fired up? Looks like I'm doing it. That's practical. That's not even the relationship. I'm dealing with that kind of stuff with friends of mine who are in similar situations where dad's not taking care of the families for whatever reason. I mean, they're literally deadbeat dads. It is what it is. If you're not taking care of your family financially, you are a deadbeat dad, period. There's the justice part of this piece, which is God wants to mend relationships, but the just as practical part is there's also restitution, there's also making right. Like my dad said, I want to be in your life and I'm like, okay, this is a normal dad-son conversation. I need a few bucks, I got a bill that I don't have the money for, I need you to help me. Done. First time I asked for money in my entire life and he was out, out. Just think about that. So let's just be practical. I'm not even gonna talk about the emotional stuff. If you're not willing to get your checkbook and your pocketbook out, don't you dare get back in these kids' lives. Don't you dare go back to that mom. Don't you dare, unless that checkbook and pocketbook is wide open. That's about as open and vulnerable and pointed as I can be. Yeah, sorry. No, I think that's good. There are a lot of thoughts there. So the first thing, so let's take it from the child's perspective or the son's perspective or daughter's perspective. So I get a text from dad saying, I want to be in your life. We need to have a better relationship. my response be to sort of protect myself but also be helpful? Yeah, because that's a sticky situation because moms never want to be the one who kept their kids from their dads. Divorce is so terrible. I know we've said it, we've talked about it, we've said how messy it is, but there's no way to really, really dive into just how messy and awful and disgusting it is. I know my own mom, she didn't want to keep us from our dad. And she, I'm not lying to you, there are times where she dropped us off in really, really unhealthy, unsafe environments because she felt like she wasn't going to keep us from our dad, but at the same point, had to pray all the way home as she dropped us off in a really unsafe, unhealthy environment. I look back at that now, I would have never done it. If I would have driven up to the door of seeing what my mom saw, there's no way in the world I would have dropped my kids off. That's not a bash against my mom. I hope nobody takes it that way. That's just me. I've raised kids now and I have my safety net and I have my bubble and what I'm going to do to protect my kids. Heck no, I would have never done it. So each parent has to go through that of trauma, of how am I going to be the parent who doesn't say no but also is still protective and taking care of their kids. That's the parent perspective. As a kid, man, every kid wants a dad, every kid wants a mom. That need and that desire is there and it doesn't go away. I learned to deal with that early on. My sister, she still needs her dad and there's still a relationship struggle that goes on there in that environment. And so we're all different and it's not a solvable problem. You're asking me to solve the problem and I'm saying it's not solvable. When somebody can't fix it. It's only by the grace of God and His strength and help that as you get older and get wiser and get intuition that you can begin to systematically work through what that means in your life. I'm telling you guys, it's a struggle. It's a process. It's not an easy process. Yeah. I'm not necessarily asking to solve it. What I'm doing is I'm saying, in hindsight, dad reaches out and says, hey, I want to be in your life. You say, oh, hey, dad, I'm struggling financially. I need some help. You, do you think you fell too hard at that comment and it should have been a different approach on your end to protect yourself a little bit more or just go for it, do it, like this is dad. Yes. He's a parent. Make the ask. Yeah, he's a parent, he has a job to do. Yeah. It's that simple. Yeah. Don't say you're a parent and not take the responsibilities of being a parent. Yeah. Plain and simple. Let's take dad's perspective on this end, right? He's emotional, he feels like he should say, Curtis, I want to be back in your life. And then you make this ask and he goes to you. What do you think really happened? I think he realized that I was going to hold him accountable. You know, I'm an adult. I'm a college 18, 19 year old. And then he realized, oh, crap, you know, I made I made the recommendation of what being his life. And now now this guy's going to hold me accountable to actually be the dad I'm supposed to be. And I just but this is normal. This is what he's done forever, just bolt, bolt, bolt. Anything hard in life, bolt from. Anything difficult, get out quick. I mean, this is not just me, this is lots of people in his life, family members, his own parents, you know. So it's not really any different, it's just the character of who he was. Yeah, yeah, and you mentioned that he was in Vietnam. May I ask you an interesting question? Sure. Can you say that had you gone through the same things he went through in Vietnam and all the things, you would have made any different of a decision? Why or why not? I know it's a hard question. Are you wanting me to be in his shoes? Yeah, so you were, you grew up in the church, you went to Vietnam, you saw all these awful things. Is there a place for us to put ourselves in dad's shoes and say, not necessarily making an excuse for them, but saying, okay, could I be more understanding that I did not go through the war, have PTSD, experience those things, and maybe look at it in that light instead? Sure. Well, that comes back to the power of the Holy Spirit. We are promised the power to deal with anything and war is terrible. War is terrible, it's traumatic. I'm not, anybody listening to me, I'm not downplaying any of that. But it's also an opportunity for us to really understand, listen, life's hard. There are not too many people that have gone through as much hard as I have in the last five years. Sorry, it's just fact. I know it. I'm not bragging on it. It just is. Is it as hard as going through war? Don't know. All I know is it was pretty hard, right? Okay. So you either are living in the power of the Holy Spirit or you're not. And if you're not living in the power of the Holy Spirit, you can't make good decisions. You can't think straight. You can't love right. You can't connect right. You can't have relationships correctly. No matter hard, not hard, good, bad, ugly, like without the power of the Holy Spirit, we cannot face the world that is in front of us. We just can't. I think that's a perfect example of, you know, and I know men. I know men who have been to Vietnam. You know, back in the day, I knew people who had been in World War II, and I'm sorry, but they were amazing dads, and they were amazing fathers, amazing husbands. And regardless of what they saw, what they knew, they came back even better, like knowing what they were living for and knowing why God left them on this earth and knowing they had this opportunity to be the best dad, the best husband, the best whatever. It's all perspective. It's all perspective. And the strength of the Holy Spirit. So, having gone through a lot of heart in my own life, that's the only answer I have. That's really good. Again, it wasn't making an excuse. I know. It's being, let's look from this perspective. I'm not downplaying. I'm not downplaying at all. But that's the only answer I have. Yeah, so that leads me to this question. Let's say it's not as extreme. I'm not necessarily neglecting my child in terms of presence. Well, I'm neglecting my child in terms of time, right? So I'm doing what I want to do. I'm still living as selfish as I was living prior to marriage and having kids, right? I'm still, you know, I work, I feel entitled to Doing X Y & Z going golfing with the buddies doing all these things and I know my kids need me more, right? I'm talking to me. All right. Yeah, I know my kids need me more. Okay, can I Truly be the dad my kids need and the man that my wife needs without Jesus hmm Wow as a singer Wow, that is a zinger. I mean, I've seen unsaved people live well, I have, but the problem is we see them on the outside. We don't know what goes on behind closed doors. We don't know what their life looks like. We don't know what's inside their head. We don't know the trauma. We don't know the bitterness, the hatred, the anger, the lust, the whatever in their hearts. We don't know any of that. And here's what I know about people in general, that everybody can fake it. You can fake that life's good. You can make your, especially in today's world, you can make your family, your world look amazing with Christ or without Christ. You can put on a persona that makes things look amazing, right? So for me to say that it's possible without Christ is to say that yeah, people can fake it, they can look like everything's okay, but God knows the heart, and He knows the evil, and He knows the darkness, and He knows the mind and what we carry. I just think people can be good husbands and good fathers and do step one through ten. If I do this, this, this, and this, I'll have a decent marriage, right? I think if I do this, this, this, and this in my kids' life, that things can be okay. It doesn't mean they're saved, it doesn't mean they're on their way to heaven, it doesn't mean that they're going to be called into ministry or that we're setting them up to be called for. You know what I mean? They're just living good lives. That's possible. I believe that's possible. But to be sold out to Jesus and live a life of purpose, that when hard things do come into those families' lives, that that hard thing could become purpose for pointing people to Christ. You know what I mean? So I understand the question. We all can fake it. We can make it. I did it. I lived in a marriage for years that we faked it and let everybody think that we were just fine and that everything was good and we were the perfect little family and couple, and inside our home was a disaster. So there's the answer to your question. I did it being totally fake it dude You are killing it right now I'm serious, man. I'm asking you some hard questions, and you're just you're just giving it to me straight, and I love it Yeah, man, you're doing it. You're doing it. I love it. I love it. Yeah, I'm so As we as we continue to kind of like push on you and your dad's story. I'm trying to do is juxtapose, hey, I have a neglectful father who literally was never in the picture. I have a father who was there, but not really there. Sure. Right. And I think we're dealing with the same spiritual problem. It's selfishness. Oh, 100%. Yeah, it's all selfishness. And we live in a world that allows us to be this selfish. I use the first world problem, quote, a lot. And I use the American problem. The American dream is crap. It's not biblical at all. So I use first world problems and I use the American problem all the time when I'm talking to people. And we live in such a society that you can, you can not take care of your family. Let the government take care of them. Let other people take care of them. Let grandparents raise my kids. We create such selfishness because of all the things that we can do and want to do in our bucket list. And I want to do this in life and this in life and this in life. Well, doggone it, why'd you get married and have kids? Like that's a crock. You should have just done your things and not involved the family in it. Like we don't have systematic thinking as to, if I do this, here's my responsibility. We have taken responsibility out of culture. Yeah. We just have. And because of the non-biblical form of taking care of people, which our government has put into place, I mean, the scripture is very clear. You know, as a family member, I'm to care for my family members, period. And if I don't, I'm as bad as an infidel and tie a rock around my neck and throw me in the sea. That's the scripture on our responsibility for taking care of our family. And then the only other responsibility that we as Christians in the church have is to take care of widows and orphans. The rest falls on the family. Sorry. So good. It's not my responsibility to care for your kids. And I know that's harsh. There's a dad out there. It's his responsibility. And then there's somebody who's listening, and says, yeah, but you know, and I'm like, sorry. We're a culture that we try to do everything on our own because we want to be individual. Well, that's not how all cultures are. A lot of cultures, three and four families live under the same roof, and they flourish, and they explode, and they have resources, and they can care for grandma and grandpa and the kids and do all those things. That's what it was like in Bible times the American way of Individualism and selfishness and moving away and starting your own thing is economically stupid Hmm It is the American dream is crap expand on this expand on this because we as men are wired to provide. Some follow that and say I will. Some run from it because it's scary. Okay, but regardless, that is something that we all still buy into as Christians is okay, yeah, I need to live in the suburbs and have nice things and be able to take care of X, Y, and Z and have enough savings and all the things. So expand on the American dream being a deception for a father who thinks he's doing right by his kids to take care of them, but he's missing the boat emotionally and spiritually. Well, we don't think about the whole picture. Like I'll never forget when my mom was dead tired, she'd been a Christian school teacher her whole adult life and she needed to retire, didn't have the funds to retire. And I remember just feeling like, that's my job. I didn't go ask for that. I didn't go say that, you know, because I know some families that they run from that. But no, that's my mom. She's a single mom. She raised me. She sacrificed for me. She did so much to get me where I'm at today. My first thought is, come on, mom. Come on, retire. Let's go. I'll find a place for you. And it wasn't easy. I didn't have the funds back then, but I said, God, you need to help me. And he helped me figure out how to retire my mom and put her in a home and take care of her. And I've been taking care of her for the last, I don't know, 15, 16 years. So practically speaking, it's way beyond your kids and your wife, way beyond. And then it goes on to who's the widow in your church, who's the divorcee in your church that you should be helping and being responsible for and helping get them where they need to be. Okay, sorry, but this goes so far beyond the basics of taking care of your family. The church's responsibility is to take care of widows and orphans and your first responsibility is to take care of all of your family. That's the formula. There's an ethical responsibility and you've got to take care of that first. You're like well they don't even like me so why would I pay for them if I've actually heard dad say this. Well they don't even want me in their life so why in the world would I give them a dime for their car for their wedding? True story. I've heard him say it. Man God loves us perfectly. Our Heavenly Father loves us perfectly. He chases us for relationship. He gave his son for us. He gives and gives and gives and gives. Or to do the same. We have the perfect model We have a lot to live up to Yeah Amen Amen because the deception of the American dream is real and You're right. It does revolve around what my family can get Money and a good godly man's hand is a good thing. Sure I think we talked about okay money money is the root of all evil. The love of money is the root of all evil, right? So we, as men, should be producing. Men are directionless and bored when they have a deadbeat job that doesn't actually provide for their families. This isn't about money, it's about provision. No. Yeah, yeah. It's not about money. It's about sacrifice, about provision. It's about, I love this family so much that I'm going to be their provider and I'm going to ask God to help me figure out how to be the best provider. It's not about being the provider of things and new cars and new toys and four wheelers and bikes and boats. That's not what we're talking about at all. At all. Have you even dreamed about your daughter walking down the aisle and getting married? Have you even had that dream? Or have you thought to yourself, oh man, I don't have enough money saved up. That's going to be such a pain in the butt when I got to come up and pay for my daughter's wedding. See the two perspectives? Sure. When did you start preparing for your daughter's wedding? When? When did you already have that dream because you love her so much you can't wait? When did you start like preparing for your son's first car? I remember I was so excited when Clay turned 15. I went out and bought this old Beater Mustang. I was like I couldn't wait to start working on it with him. He's 15. He wasn't even ready to drive yet and I already was so excited about having this old Mustang that we could work on. It was a fixer-upper. I didn't put a lot of money into it but he was gonna help learn how to fix and work on it so he had his hands on his very first car like I dreamed of that stuff way before it ever happened hmm I don't know there's there's another side to this too though where we have dad that is in the picture and wants those things to be your first form of responsibility. So for me, I burned a hole in my pocket whenever I first got a job. And I remember I wanted a car, and I wanted to buy this personal training certification and stuff, and I remember the best lessons my dad ever taught me was pay for yourself. Not because he didn't have it, but because he was providing emotionally and in all the ways that we needed, and we had all of our needs but he wanted me to pay for my first car. I should. I agree with that. Way better care of that first car because of that and I would never finish my personal training certification had my dad paid for it and not made me go mow lawns and make the money to pay for it. So there is that side but I do hear what you're saying when it comes to dad that was never in the picture. you owe restitution for never being there and putting everything on mom. Which leads me to my next question. Sure. Tons of moms out there that know they have a deadbeat husband. They don't want to face it, but it's true. What do you say to mom? What can she do about it, if anything? That's a hard question. Well, first of all, you know, the Lord is the only one who can release you from a marriage. I'm always going to tell you that. I had an opportunity to get out of a marriage so many times, and the Lord would never release me. And when he did, it was this incredible burden that was gone. Still divorce is messy and awful and terrible. It doesn't release you from the effects of it. Just know that sometimes what you're in seems really, really bad, but outside of that, it's even worse. It's always greener. You don't know that perspective. I'm telling you that divorce is far worse than a lot of people's current situations, even though the current situations aren't that good. Make sense? Divorce is so hard. It's so miserable, so messy. So just kind of keep that in perspective. The second is, you know, Scripture talks about the wife or the husband who lives in the home of an unbeliever. And if that unbeliever, and I'm sorry, you can call yourself a Christian and not live like a Christian, you're an unbeliever, okay? So you are not saved, you're not on your way, quit faking it, all right? Let's just get that straight. And only the husbands and wives know that about each other. But if you're living with an unbeliever, he may even go to church, who knows, but he's not a believer. The scripture is clear about, you know, if the unbeliever is amenable and is doing enough to keep the marriage and keep going, you're to stay in it. You're to be the example, the testimony that just maybe your life will represent Christ so well that your unbelieving spouse will find the Lord. And I know that's hard because, you know, the dynamics of a marriage in those situations sometimes are really, really awful. You have someone who is in a marriage, feels okay, you're a deadbeat dad, you're a deadbeat husband, and you're saying if they're doing enough, you're to stay with them. What is enough? What is the threshold in your mind? I'm from the Bible right now. But what is the threshold in your mind to make a distinction between they really are a deadbeat and or they're not? I'll never forget pastor friend of mine was taking groceries to a lady in the church Literally the lady came in with with dirty clothes the kids that didn't have clothes did kids didn't have shoes And he's thinking this is a really bad situation. He knocks on the door. Nobody's there He sees somebody's in the garage and there's a there's a guy sitting on a stool drinking a beer with a $50,000 race car sitting in the garage. It was dad. Every penny he made, he dumped into that race car to go racing on the weekends. And the church was bringing groceries to feed the kids because they didn't have clothes or food or... I don't have to answer that question. Yeah, daggone. Yeah. But that's a reality in a lot, a lot of homes. Yeah. And you've been around, you could think of some. Sure. Yeah. Well, I think that when a woman wants to take care of the house, if that is what she is called to do and she is not doing that just because there isn't enough income for the family, that is dad's responsibility to make happen because we've done it under the most ridiculous financial circumstances. Sure. The money didn't even make sense, but God honored it. God honored it. Oh man, all the time. I can attest to that. When my wife came home and said, man, I really just wanna be home with these kids. And I was like, to me, that was such a blessing to hear those words. And I was like, I'm gonna make it happen. Whatever I gotta do. And I worked two and three jobs for years. I mean, for years to make that happen. Also the dad's responsibility Whatever you got to do to make that the most nurturing amazing household ever Mmm, figure it out Yeah, so I agree with you. I'm we're on the same page there Yeah, yeah, I think so. So back to Del story though like yeah, sure the spiritual part the the hard part though. What's our responsibility? Mm-hmm. I listened to his podcast twice. Yeah, because I just Number one our dads are similar Our situations are similar from the the big difference was is you know, my dad is gone different two states away I don't have to have interaction with him, I don't have to have a lot of interaction with that family, which means I can really keep boundaries. Delph's same town, hometown, grandma, family, he has these interactions, you know what I mean? So that part is different, but the person in our dads is the same. It's the same. And so I felt for him. I'm much older than you guys and I'm thinking about at that age with young children. I remember Delph in his podcast said, man, I just want you to be a granddad, a grandparent. Man, I felt that. I felt that. I remember reaching out to my dad for the first time in 15 years and saying, how can we make this work? I invited him to my house for Thanksgiving. It was awful. I wish I had never done it. It was bad. He was such a shell of a man. He'd ruined his life with drugs and women and alcohol and all the things that there just wasn't anybody home and it was awful and and I remember you know telling my wife at the time I'm sorry I'm sorry it didn't go well it was first time you know he ever got a chance to meet his grandkids but he'd made so many terrible life choices there was no way he could ever be the grandpa, the grandfather that those kids needed him to be. And that's what I felt with Delph when he said that was like even though he wants him in their life, he's not capable. He's not capable of being that grandfather that those kids need and in some cases you may not want. I have another friend, a former student of mine, who he had to make the decision that his dad was so far into drugs and alcohol and stuff that He couldn't allow his dad around his kids Hmm had to tell him dad you can't come back You're not allowed man It's hard stuff man hard stuff Yeah, and then and then you know the whole episode with Josh was about eternity and what we do with that. And finding the peace of God in the middle of that mental battle, and it is a battle, I can tell you that. Because I heard Josh express, did I do enough? Did I say enough? Was I present enough? And I remember my mom saying one time, you know, Satan is the accuser. Satan will use even spiritual things to beat us up over. He's the accuser. He's the one that's going to tell you you're at fault, that you're wrong. You know what I mean? My dad grew up in church. He grew up under the ministry of his dad. My dad knows. I couldn't present the gospel to my dad any better than the thousands of people before me have been able to present the gospel to him. And to work through that individually and be able to say, I've got to keep a distance because this relationship is harmful in my life. It's harmful to my wife. It's harmful to my kids. Like, it's not good. It's hard. And then the battle of, is it my responsibility that my dad gets salvation or finds the Lord? And for me, I've got to tell you, for me, God has helped me with this. It is not my job. He's had so many seeds planted in his life for his entire lifetime. I can forgive my dad. I don't have a relationship with him. So it's not like I have all these traumatic things to forgive him for. I just don't have a relationship. But I can forgive him. And I have. I don't think about it. I can hold him accountable, but I forgive him. I can pray for him continuously every day. Every day Lord do something my dad's life raised the fog Open his mind for a split second to see and to know and to find you before he leaves this earth I've prayed that for years and years and years right But the third thing is though as I can know Where my place is in his life. And I can also be sensitive to the Spirit and know if God says it's time to go call him, it's time to go see him, I'm confident enough in my relationship with God that I know that I'll be obedient to do it. But if you were to ask me today if it's my job or I should go do it, I could honestly and peacefully tell you it's not. That's well said. So forgiveness, prayer, and then just awareness, praying for seeds to be planted, and then also Lord, I'll do it, but I don't feel like you're calling me to do it. Correct. So, but before you move on, I got to tell you the story because it's, it's so powerful and ties some of these thoughts together. Reverend Perdue is an evangelist in the Nazarene Church for years and years. I grew up in so many revival services under his preaching, and he tells the most horrific story of when his drunk dad ran over and killed one of his siblings. Awful. Awful. He was an alcoholic. The home was a disaster. They were poor. Dad drank himself, literally spent every dime just drinking. And when he turned 18, man, he left that house and never returned. I want nothing to do with this home, these people, this dad. He's a terrible, awful human being. And the Lord finds this young man. He saves him, calls him into ministry, and he's one of the most prestigious, powerful Nazarene evangelists in the country and preaches and has preached for so many years. And there was a time in his life when his dad was late in his years and not doing well that God said, I need you to go to your dad. And Purdue led the man that ran over his sibling in a drunken stupor to the Lord, and he found Jesus before he died. Wow. That is absolutely amazing. So I want to be in touch with God to know if it's my turn, it's my time, I'll do it. It's not, it isn't mine yet. It hasn't been. And I want to encourage Josh in that the devil is an accuser, he's a liar, and he doesn't need to go thinking that it was his responsibility. Yes, we have to live with purpose, we have to take the responsibility that God gives us, but everybody has choices for eternity that they're going to make every day of their lives. And ultimately, we stand before God by ourselves for how we lived our lives, how we spent our lives, how we cared for our families, how we did all the things that God entrusted us with. And that falls individually on me. Yeah. Gosh, man, there's so much wisdom in the things you're saying right now. I'll tell you a quick story. So, I have a great relationship with my dad. What's interesting is he has turned the tides of generations of horrible things within our family. Now, but I was at a camp recently, a huge man camp for a major church in the United States. And we're under this tent and I don't want to exaggerate. I think there's probably 2,000 to 3,000 dudes there. And the very last day, this guy gets up and he starts talking about how important fatherhood is. And as he ends, he says, if you've never received a blessing from your father, I want you to take a knee. And I was absolutely overwhelmed with the amount of dudes in that tent that took a knee. I was one of 30 percent of them that were standing. Right. I would say seven out of 10 of those dudes were on a knee and I was blown away. And so when I tell you there's great wisdom in what you're saying, I saw the statistics right in front of my eyes of a group of 2 to 3,000 Christian men, most of them, who had to get on their knee and say, I need a blessing from a father in this room because my dad never gave me one. I love how Josh ended his podcast where you point blank said, Josh, where's your hope? Where's your hope? And I'll be honest with you, I cringed. You know, you do it to me all the time. You're always like zinging me and hitting me and I can take it. I've got thick enough skin to like work through it. But when you did that, I cringed. I didn't know what emotions I was feeling, but how he responded, oh my goodness. And then it quickly made me remember my great friend Wendell Brown preached a sermon on the thief on the cross And and I don't know if we've shared this in a podcast before or not, but it's so impacted me that In his dying breath Jesus says to this thief because you've recognized who I am like you're gonna spend eternity with me and and after I heard Josh's episode I had one more thought think about this for a second. It's recorded in the scripture because somebody heard it, right? It's there Mary John a disciple somebody heard it But somebody may never have told that that thief may have died and nobody knew what happened. Yes, it's recorded in the scripture. Yes, we have it for us now, but what if those family members never knew? Hmm. Yeah, it's interesting. Yeah, you're absolutely right. What if mom and dad, what if mom and dad never heard the story of their son's conversion? And they went off with the rest of their life with the doubt that their son was a terrible, awful thief who was killed for his crimes and is on their way to hell. Think about it. Amen. So, the perspective is that there's so much hope in last-minute conversions, in last second conversions, you just don't know. And that was the message that Wendell left us in a message one time and I never forgot it because it just, it made me think of so many people in my life that I've seen pass away that I was like, man, they did not make it. They didn't have Jesus. They didn't know. Curtis, as we conclude this episode, thank you, man, for sharing your heart, for sharing your story of your relationship with your dad. Thank you for the ruthless practicality in this episode. I think it is so, so needed for people to hear this. I'm going to ask you to close us out in praying just for a dad who's listening who could be like, man, I needed to hear this. And a son or daughter who's listening to this, who didn't have a relationship with that. All right, let's see if we can do this. God, we come before you today humbled, vulnerable, open. Lord, trusting you to use this stuff for your honor and glory. Lord, we started this episode. this stuff for your honor and glory. When we started this episode with the fact that nothing gets wasted, that good, bad, ugly, you want people to know you, you use tragedies, you use these things in life so that people can see you for who you are. Lord, being a fatherless child for all intents and purposes and having to find a perfect heavenly Father, Lord, it's been a journey and it's taken many people in my life to show me what a good father looks like, who a good father serves, how a good father treats their family, their wives, their children. But Lord, the models that you gave me are people that followed you. And Lord, I pray for husbands and dads who are Christ followers, that they would be that for some other kid. Who doesn't have a dad, may never have a dad. Lord, help us to take that torch of responsibility and save a kid's life. Lord, I pray for the dad that needs to get serious about his relationship with his wife, with his kids, who needs to change some things, who needs to go to the Word of God and find out his purpose, find out what he's supposed to be doing, understand that ultimately what an amazing thing it is to be a dad, to be a husband. I want to strengthen that guy right now that's struggling to know what next steps are to do what you've called them to do and to be. Yeah, pray for that kid, Lord, who doesn't have the daddy he needs. Maybe there's nobody in the picture. Lord, send that kid somebody, I pray. Lord pray for the kid, the teenager, the young adult who they're broke. They're standing there wondering, I don't even know what a dad looks like. I don't know how to be a dad when I get older, when I get married, when I have my own kids. I don't have an example to follow. Lord, I pray that you'd come alongside that kid. Pray that you'd provide them examples, but ultimately, Lord, show them that your perfect love, your perfect care. Lord, I pray for the moms out there struggling. They want this person in their life. Lord, provide somebody for them. Lord, let them be like my own mom who said, I want to be married to Jesus. The one who will never let me down. The one who will care and provide. And Lord, you did. You cared for our families so amazingly. Lord, we love you and we're just trusting you with this podcast, with this information, with our stories. Thank you for the people that you have touched through it and that you continue to touch. Lord, help us to be followers of you and to know you and to trust you. And we give you all the praise and the honor and the glory. We ask this in your name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Hey, thanks so much for listening to the podcast. Guys, please do so. And finally, third thing here, finally, please check out the details behind the Michael Foundation in the link below. We'd love your support on this foundation, helping families stuck in grief with financial expenses. Thanks again, and we'll see you next time.  ♪♪

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