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Curtis: [00:00:20] Hi everybody, [00:00:30] welcome to the Run to the Heart podcast.

[Curtis: This podcast was literally put together because I'm a griever. Two years ago, my beautiful wife, Michael, passed away [00:00:40] tragically from a rare cancer, four weeks. She was gone, and Michael had a unique view on life though, life and death, and on her deathbed, [00:00:50] she literally looked at the children and I and said, I want you guys to run to the hard, and run to the hurt, for it's in the greatest hard that God's gonna do.

[00:00:59] Curtis: The greatest [00:01:00] work and because of her mantra, that's how this podcast began is, is that I have just been over the last six months, breathing out my [00:01:10] story and her story and, grieving and figuring out what next steps of life look like. Well, I'm two years in now and. I'm [00:01:20] still searching, looking, interested in other people's stories.

[00:01:25] Curtis: And I've begun to bring guests on who are helping me continue this process [00:01:30] of grieving, understanding what other people have gone through, what other circumstances people have gone through. And so today I've got long time friends, people I've known [00:01:40] forever, uh, Steph and Dale Schaefer with me today. And we're gonna, we're gonna dive into a little bit different of a topic.

[00:01:46] Curtis: We're gonna talk about dealing with aging parents [00:01:50] and even the death of a parent. It's relevant, it's real, we're children of parents, and it's gonna happen. And so, Steph and Dale, [00:02:00] welcome to the program today. I know it's not the, you know, the kind of program that we're just jumping for joy to be a part of, but I'm so glad you, you came aboard.

[00:02:08] Curtis: Thank you.[00:02:10]

[00:02:10] Dale and Steph: Thanks for the invite, Curtis. We appreciate the opportunity to talk about a topic that's really, really important. And I feel like it gives you an opportunity to [00:02:20] honor the person and their story. And so we're really grateful for that opportunity today as well. I think, you know, as I think about, um, Michael's story, I'm so [00:02:30] thankful for the way that you're honoring her story with this podcast.

[00:02:34] Dale and Steph: And I love her authenticity. And that's kind of our hope in this conversation today, [00:02:40] that we'd honor her story by being authentic, about the story that we've got to share today. And so thanks for giving us the opportunity to do that.

[00:02:47] Curtis: No, I appreciate it. Stuff just kind of take us [00:02:50] into when mom got sick.

[00:02:51] Curtis: some of the struggles. Cause you guys lived in Florida.

[00:02:54] Dale and Steph: well,, when the struggles first began, we actually were in Oregon, my dad was having more ins and outs of [00:03:00] hospital stays when we were living in Oregon. But mom's, dementia actually started when we were in Oregon and

[00:03:07] Dale and Steph: my dad would call and he'd be like, Hey, [00:03:10] I need you to talk to mom.

[00:03:11] Dale and Steph: Like something's going on. It's not right. She's like just being really, just verbally combative actually like just [00:03:20] kind of like she just is getting mad really easy. So that really expedited into 2019 when we moved to Florida.

[00:03:29] Dale and Steph: I was [00:03:30] getting calls almost daily to every other day of like trying to talk mom off the ledge or then she'd call me and said, your dad, like it just, it was kind of a lot of back and forth.

[00:03:39] Dale and Steph: [00:03:40] My mom came in September to visit. Like I flew her down here. I'm like, I gotta, I gotta see with my own eyes what, what's going on. And I was seeing like she wasn't remembering [00:03:50] certain things. She, you know, honestly, when I picked her up from the airport, I had to go in. And when I went in to pick her up, I got all the way up to where I could see her coming off [00:04:00] of the plane.

[00:04:01] Dale and Steph: And she actually tripped and she literally launched herself forward into a wall, like she just was very clumsy and not remembering [00:04:10] things. And so I was able to put my eyes on my mom and see something's not Right.

[00:04:17] Dale and Steph: She went back [00:04:20] and it was still a lot of every other day calls calming her down.

[00:04:24] Dale and Steph: Things that she would see on TV were real life. Like there is like, you know, a story, a [00:04:30] news story about a fire. And she's like, you know, what's going to happen. There's going to be a fire. We can't go to sleep. Like just really paranoid about everything. And then the world started to shut [00:04:40] down and yeah, I mean that was the wild part early 2020 and then in February of 2020 she actually went For [00:04:50] another hospital stay ended up.

[00:04:52] Dale and Steph: We had to take her to a psych hospital to really see She wasn't responding. She wasn't Taking her [00:05:00] meds. She was really just Really overly paranoid about everything. Yeah, I think the paranoia was one of the hardest things to watch, because that wasn't her.

[00:05:09] Dale and Steph: [00:05:10] Yeah, she'd always been real strong. I mean, kind of silly and awful, but she wasn't paranoid.

[00:05:15] Dale and Steph: She wasn't a paranoid person. Um, she wasn't afraid of being alone. She [00:05:20] wasn't afraid of, like, doing things on her. own. But everything scared her, so anyway, by February of 2020, she was out of the psych hospital, but she was [00:05:30] in a nursing home. She hadn't completely forgot who everybody was, but her mental state of mind, she was beginning to forget things. And those would [00:05:40] cause fights and issues at home. And we, I was actually doing safety checks on both my parents at different times because I'm still so far removed.

[00:05:49] Dale and Steph: My [00:05:50] sisters couldn't get in or, you know, one would be mad at another so that they couldn't get in the house. So I'm literally doing calls and safety calls on my, on my family and [00:06:00] both their health were starting to

[00:06:03] Curtis: you have to, Did you have to, come spend some time in Michigan at all? Yeah.

[00:06:07] Dale and Steph: I did, they just didn't have a handle on things. My mom [00:06:10] had been paying bills, but because of where her mind was going, she wasn't, so dad didn't know. so in 19, I like, literally went there, started doing all their bills, figuring things out, [00:06:20] and then I just brought everything.

[00:06:21] Dale and Steph: We just made sure my name was on everything, I brought it home

[00:06:24] Curtis: let me just talk about that for a second because that's a that's a really big deal and and as [00:06:30] a You know as a son You know, I think it's important that all of us have that conversation with a parent at some point Would you agree with that? [00:06:40] Like who's in charge or who's going to be in charge if X Y Z happens?

[00:06:45] Curtis: I think that's I think that's kind of a big deal

[00:06:48] Dale and Steph: getting that established [00:06:50] before they don't have their mindset to have clear conversations because then it seems as though you're leading it and trying to push [00:07:00] them that way. And if you have siblings, that's not always something your siblings look fond upon. Um, so. So, you know, having those conversations early and even [00:07:10] having some of the documentation, um, I mean, they had already put me on bank accounts and stuff like that. So, that wasn't hard, but just having those, that communication with [00:07:20] vendors or bill utilities or whatever,

[00:07:23] Curtis: at that point though, you were paying the bills. You were in charge of finances for both.

[00:07:29] Dale and Steph: For both. [00:07:30] Yeah.

[00:07:30] Dale and Steph: For the whole household. That's hard because, you know, you get so You're, you're parenting your parents and you, you are now in what's called that [00:07:40] sandwich generation. You're, you're the sandwich person And

[00:07:45] Dale and Steph: and it starts off like, oh, I'm just being helpful, but it gets [00:07:50] increasingly hard.

[00:07:51] Curtis: just to help people understand, mom and dad were not that old at this point. How how old were they?

[00:07:56] Dale and Steph: 63

[00:07:58] Curtis: Yeah, and that's, that's [00:08:00] the part I wanted to share because we just don't know when.

[00:08:03] Dale and Steph: Yeah.

[00:08:04] Curtis: And, and we can't just keep putting it off and putting it off. These are conversations that we, we have to have. I hate them.

[00:08:09] Dale and Steph: [00:08:10] I think that's

[00:08:11] Curtis: I hate having these conversations.

[00:08:13] Dale and Steph: I think you have to have the conversation early, you know, and don't assume that it's something that you can delay until someone's [00:08:20] 70 or 80. You know, I'd, if I've got parents that are in their sixties, we need to be having some conversation. Hey, what are your plans in the future?

[00:08:27] Dale and Steph: If, if your health begins to fail, [00:08:30] what are we going to do here? And can we try and make Sure.

[00:08:33] Dale and Steph: we're getting all on the same page? And if there are siblings, Bring them in because that was a hard, that was a hard part for [00:08:40] us as my, my dad and mom didn't bring my siblings in. And so from, from the start, I am, I'm fighting battles that I shouldn't [00:08:50] have to be fighting

[00:08:51] Curtis: It's hard enough what you have to do. You don't need to be fighting at the same

[00:08:54] Dale and Steph: Like, I mean, me and my one sister, we weren't, I mean, neither one of my sisters were we even [00:09:00] communicating. And not until almost a year and a half in did one of them, I just said, we've got to figure this out. Like, I think you have a misunderstanding of what I'm being asked of. I don't think dad was completely [00:09:10] clear with you versus me.

[00:09:11] Dale and Steph: And we sat in our front yard for three hours and hashed it out. And, you know, we talk now and she understands that, like, I was [00:09:20] being given some information. She was being, cause my dad didn't like confrontation. My mom did, but my dad did not. It's truth to that. So, like, [00:09:30] but we hashed out, I'm like, we have to be together if we're going to be there and honor our parents and that is primary.

[00:09:36] Dale and Steph: And so, you know, that has helped that relationship, [00:09:40] but getting everybody on the same page, how uncomfortable it may be is huge.

[00:09:49] Curtis: [00:09:50] So, you know, mom turns, mom turns 80 this year. I don't know if you knew that next month she turns 80. That's, I

[00:09:55] Dale and Steph: goodness. she's

[00:09:56] Curtis: probably gonna be mad. She's gonna be mad that I said it out loud, but it's, it's [00:10:00] true.

[00:10:00] Curtis: What made me think of is that, you know, mom's had two bouts of cancer and, you know, that first bout, you know, it was rough and, um, having to start those conversations. [00:10:10] So, The the problem for most of us that is we never have those conversation conversations until there's an actual event And it's like [00:10:20] this event Causes us to have these conversations, but what about people who don't get a chance?

[00:10:25] Curtis: You know the event doesn't allow them to have the chance to have the conversation And so [00:10:30] if we could put it up for a vote how many says that we need to have these conversations ahead of time?

[00:10:35] Dale and Steph: absolutely.

[00:10:36] Curtis: So I don't know that's what that's what crossed my mind [00:10:40] because mom and I have had a lot of conversations like that And we we have a plan Um, it stinks.

[00:10:46] Curtis: I hate I hate talking that way um [00:10:50] what you what you may or may not know is um The weekend of the funeral of michael's funeral mom got covid really bad And she was so [00:11:00] hurt that she couldn't be at the funeral and she called me the day before and said, son, I'm so sorry. I'm so sick. I cannot be there to support you.

[00:11:07] Curtis: And, um, I remember saying, mom, [00:11:10] don't you die this weekend on Michael's funeral? Like, like, are you serious right now? I can't, I can't do this. You know what I [00:11:20] mean? Um, but, but those are, those are real conversations we really had. And so. I don't know. That was my thought is like, if somebody is listening to this and they haven't [00:11:30] had an event yet that forces them to do this, man, start talking about it.

[00:11:35] Curtis: Start having the conversations. It you'll be glad you did. [00:11:40] Well, keep going. Cause I know the story gets harder and harder and harder. Oh,

[00:11:46] Dale and Steph: in 2020, she went into the nursing home. [00:11:50] And, Between, 2020 and her passing in 2022, there was a lot of trips back and forth, um, there was a lot of phone calls, um, [00:12:00] she's still dealing with paranoia and having to work with the nursing home almost every day to just get her to eat. Her, her paranoia [00:12:10] is intense.

[00:12:12] Dale and Steph: She doesn't know what's going on and the world shut down. We can't go see her so everything is on video and so [00:12:20] that in itself I think actually kind of expedited things because there is so much That we couldn't do. My dad, that's local, couldn't [00:12:30] do, um, my siblings, my nieces and nephews, they could not go see her because of everything being on lockdown.

[00:12:37] Dale and Steph: So, you know, with the calls and she [00:12:40] just could not understand that. Um, and so she just, she started like regressing and just kind of shutting herself down, like refusing to take more meds. [00:12:50] And so, um, You know, we tried to FaceTime a lot. Um, I relied a lot on her, her caregivers there to give me reports. And, [00:13:00] you know, they'd call me to get her to eat.

[00:13:02] Dale and Steph: Um, because she was just dwindling down to nothing. She lost a lot, a lot of weight. Um, and, [00:13:10] and that's hard. Like you see, you know, you, you want to see and remember your parent as they're aging and getting elderly and also [00:13:20] potentially. You want to remember them as you knew them. And in my young years, you know, she's strong.

[00:13:27] Dale and Steph: She's engaged with probably [00:13:30] everything. And she likes to make people smile. And just to see her laying in a bed, it's hard, you know, watching her not be that strong [00:13:40] Marine that I was always so proud of. Um, and I love to tell people, my mom was a Marine. Um, And to, so to see her [00:13:50] not be that person. Um, but know that that's still that, that she is that person.

[00:13:56] Dale and Steph: It's just different. So hard. Um, [00:14:00] so she was in the nursing home. There was, um, a lot of back and forth because my dad's health also continued to deteriorate. Um, and so [00:14:10] he was in and out of the hospital. And so I would go home. to Michigan, um, sometimes for a weekend and sometimes for [00:14:20] two weeks. And then it kept increasing to three weeks and sometimes a month at a time, you know, and in our own home, [00:14:30] you think, okay, I've got to go do this.

[00:14:32] Dale and Steph: So I'm going to hit the pause button here and everything's going to pause because I've been dealing with the hard in [00:14:40] another state. It doesn't pause. Everything doesn't pause. Everything keeps going. Everything, everything else [00:14:50] still has movement and still has emotion and still has deadlines and, and needs.

[00:14:56] Dale and Steph: Um, but I couldn't be here. And so that happened [00:15:00] multiple times with dad's health. Um,

[00:15:03] Curtis: Dale, tell me about that because your wife, you got three daughters, your wife's gone [00:15:10] sometimes weeks at a time.

[00:15:12] Curtis: What, what's it look like?

[00:15:14] Dale and Steph: Yeah, I was reflecting on this with Steph, um, before we jumped on with you and I'm a, I'm [00:15:20] a real reflective person. So I journal and I think about my experiences and I'm, I'm always trying to evaluate my experience and make myself better, make our family [00:15:30] better. And so if you go to my journal up until your mom went into care, um, there's almost daily Post in my journal right of [00:15:40] reflection on what's happening and getting ready to talk with you.

[00:15:43] Dale and Steph: I looked at I said So what was I journaling during this window? And here's what I discovered Curtis between [00:15:50] Her father's decline. So her mom's been in care for almost a year at this point. So this would have been early 2021 and now her [00:16:00] dad's failing. Uh, there's a cancer diagnosis. He's going on dialysis.

[00:16:03] Dale and Steph: All this is like running concurrently. It's just heavy stuff. And, uh, in January of [00:16:10] 2021, I stopped journaling when she flew to Michigan to be with her dad. And I didn't journal again until a year and a half later when they both passed [00:16:20] within five weeks of each other.

[00:16:21] Curtis: Really?

[00:16:22] Dale and Steph: I didn't journal once during that season in And that's, that's a window into what was [00:16:30] going on in our household during that time.

[00:16:33] Dale and Steph: There was, there was just this sense we're trying to keep our heads above water. We're trying to do right by her parents [00:16:40] and everything we can to like so much energy. You only have so much energy, right? And now you're taking, I'd say, 35 percent of our energy, [00:16:50] maybe 40 percent of our energy, maybe more was going to supporting her parents during that time.

[00:16:56] Dale and Steph: And then the rest of it, I mean, everything that was non essential [00:17:00] got shut down, right? Uh, recreation, self care, you know, all those things that you think of as non essential that are very essential, they get shut out [00:17:10] and you're just going day to day to day. Um, Yeah.

[00:17:15] Dale and Steph: I wish, I wish I journaled during that time.

[00:17:17] Dale and Steph: So it was a lot of just trying to make sure our girls [00:17:20] were where they needed to be. Right. We had two girls in high school during that time. Uh, one was a senior in high school and another one was, uh, a sophomore at [00:17:30] that time. And they're struggling. Um, they're, they're really spinning and then. Mom's gone. Yeah.

[00:17:37] Dale and Steph: mom's gone. And it's me and them. And then the last [00:17:40] year of her parents health, it was mom's gone. And Brenna, our middle was away at all of that at school, right? And the youngest one, you know, she she doesn't [00:17:50] have her mom here. And her sister who's been her best friend isn't here. And she's with her dad.

[00:17:55] Dale and Steph: And I'm trying to be Mom, dad, and sibling, [00:18:00] right, and, and fill all these gaps in her life, um, that was probably the hardest, I think the hardest season that we've had in, in life and ministry was that [00:18:10] season from when her, both of her parents really started to decline until they passed, and they passed within five weeks of each other.

[00:18:15] Dale and Steph: It was, yeah, almost three and a half, but Yeah.

[00:18:18] Dale and Steph: but yeah, [00:18:20] but Yeah, so lots of taking sweet stuff to the airport and managing the household and all that.

[00:18:24] Curtis: I use the word capacity like there's just no more capacity. You are you [00:18:30] are tapped out All right, Steph hard question It seems like as I talk to other friends who have experienced this kind of thing It's [00:18:40] almost like somebody gets stuck drawing the short stick

[00:18:43] Dale and Steph: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:18:44] Dale and Steph: it kind of feels that way. Yeah. it can, but in the same sense, there's so much, [00:18:50] this is gonna sound really weird, but there's actually so much that I cherish, and, and, you know, found joy in being in this space with my [00:19:00] parents because I was able to honor them in that way.

[00:19:03] Dale and Steph: I knew their wishes and even though I got the short stick and had to do the hard, I [00:19:10] wouldn't want to be anywhere else and I wouldn't want to question whether or not somebody else was making Sure.

[00:19:17] Dale and Steph: their wishes were there, were being [00:19:20] fulfilled. And so, yes and no. Like, you The hard days and the times where you're trying to have some normalcy and you know Go [00:19:30] out with your husband and play disc golf and your phone rings and you're like, I got a call an ambulance I'm so sorry like like I'm sorry our games done and you know, you [00:19:40] continue on I gotta go go to the car and figure This out, you know or whatever.

[00:19:44] Dale and Steph: I don't think I continued on. No But like Like, those are, those are [00:19:50] moments that, um, I was also reflecting on some of what I was journaling and, you know, regardless that the moments were hard, they're the only moments that [00:20:00] we get in that season. And so even if they're hard, and even if they, honestly, they suck,

[00:20:08] Curtis: Yeah.

[00:20:08] Dale and Steph: that's really what they [00:20:10] are, they just suck, you don't want to be there,

[00:20:12] Curtis: Yeah.

[00:20:13] Dale and Steph: but that's the moment we get, and I don't want to miss those moments, regardless how hard they are.

[00:20:19] Dale and Steph: [00:20:20] So, I would take the short stick again if I had to. Um, I was able to walk those roads with both of my parents all the way to the end, and, and be [00:20:30] Right.

[00:20:30] Dale and Steph: by their side, and that in itself is hard. Um, you know, Mom, Mom was on, um, hospice care for over a year. Um, and in [00:20:40] that, in that time, Dad ended up in the hospital, and then, um, Not very many people, but you know, like they have an underground home.

[00:20:49] Dale and Steph: [00:20:50] So I had to work very hard with, with the physician saying there is no way he can go back home. He cannot care for himself. [00:21:00] And unless I were to move him with me or me move there with him, like I have siblings, but he needs round the clock care [00:21:10] that he cannot get. And so he cannot go back home.

[00:21:13] Dale and Steph: It's unsafe. Um, and we worked hard and he ended up also in a nursing [00:21:20] home and they're at now at two different nursing homes So that you're like working with different care teams and trying to keep that straight and [00:21:30] then he ended up He did have a cancer scare. It wasn't cancer, but they he did have a cancer scare But he ended up also having to start [00:21:40] dialysis.

[00:21:40] Dale and Steph: So Also then working with a dialysis team and that cared during a time where transportation was not great during COVID to [00:21:50] get a six six man into whatever car they're using as their medical transport. And so like I had to leave [00:22:00] heavily. Yeah.

[00:22:01] Dale and Steph: I had to, you know, rely heavily on one of my aunts that drove in the area and see if I could get her to help drive or, you [00:22:10] know, then my sibling, cause all of a sudden drivers just weren't showing up to pick him back up from hospice care or from dialysis to take him back to the nursing home.

[00:22:18] Dale and Steph: And so his health [00:22:20] just kept declining as Well. Um, and ultimately dialysis, um, Wasn't working and we had to make that tough decision with him whether to continue or not [00:22:30] to continue and those are hard conversations because And you end up being the person who's having those hard conversations. [00:22:40] It's like I have to bring this up and as As your kid, you, you, you want your, your parents to have the hard conversation.

[00:22:47] Dale and Steph: You don't want them, but you expect your parents to be having the [00:22:50] hard conversations with you. Not you having to bring this up, being like, dad, I know you don't want to do this, but do you realize if you don't, what this [00:23:00] means? Um, and even though if you continue the outcome, is the same, um, [00:23:10] that's hard, you know, and I was able to do that, but it was not easy, and it was not because, like, I had all the [00:23:20] knowledge and the strength to do it.

[00:23:21] Dale and Steph: It was only because I had, you know, my spouse, people that love me, um, God that I trust in, and he's been faithful, [00:23:30] um, to help me walk those roads, and my, and my, my dad's sisters. So those are, those are the ways that. I was able to have those [00:23:40] conversations, but they're still so hard. It's so

[00:23:43] Dale and Steph: hard.

[00:23:44] Curtis: so you're married. You're in two different states a lot. There's still [00:23:50] kids growing up, going to college, going through high school, like another tough question, but you know, what's this do to a, what's this do to a [00:24:00] marriage? Where does your strength come from? How do you make it work?

[00:24:07] Dale and Steph: It's hard. I mean, it's, it was a [00:24:10] lot of conversations. I told Dale it was I mean like something's got to change. Um, I feel like we're both, but I feel [00:24:20] like we're going around like the sticks with the plates on the top and you're like spinning them and you go to the next one and you're spinning them and you're spinning them.

[00:24:26] Dale and Steph: Like, I feel like there's 12 and one of them's gonna [00:24:30] crash and I don't know which one it's gonna be, but it can't be us and it can't be our family. But some things have to go by the [00:24:40] wayside at this point where we're at. Um. Because it's just too much And I you know, I really limited travel during that season.

[00:24:49] Dale and Steph: [00:24:50] So Something that had started to build up before that was I was speaking in churches and doing some travel and during the season really didn't Do travel I've [00:25:00] only opened that up in the last couple of years and that had to go, you know It couldn't continue to happen and Had to get some help in the office, Right. That's when [00:25:10] Mark joined our team and having Mark on the team in that window was a grace, right? You, uh, you gotta, you know, you gotta have a village, right? You gotta have a team around you that are helping [00:25:20] to be God's grace to you if you're gonna keep things going. So you had, one of the things I love is you had great care providers.

[00:25:28] Dale and Steph: You had one gal in particular [00:25:30] who just was, she was an angel. Yeah.

[00:25:32] Dale and Steph: She was an absolute angel. And, I mean, Went above and beyond what her job description was [00:25:40] to support your mom during that season. Um, I don't know how we would have, would have got through it without her. So, you know, our relationship's important, but our relationship doesn't [00:25:50] stay strong without other people helping bring strength to us.

[00:25:53] Dale and Steph: Right? So we had strength that came from care providers who were a grace of God. Um, we had strength from [00:26:00] congregants that we have worshiped with for decades, right? That are not in Florida with us, but they're, they're sending us text messages and praying with us. Um, when we see them and visit [00:26:10] with them, they're praying for us.

[00:26:11] Dale and Steph: They're calling us and reaching out. Um, I had a group of about four guys that, I mean, it was, it was probably every week they were texting [00:26:20] me. Um, let me know they're praying for me and communicating with me, um, helping to keep my head on right as to how to support you. One of them, uh, John had a spouse who was [00:26:30] dealing with a mom who had dementia at the same time.

[00:26:32] Dale and Steph: And so, you know, John's friendship was a grace to me that helped me to be a better husband to my wife because I had [00:26:40] another guy that was in the same space and because we were kind of in that same space and he was like a step ahead of me. I was learning things that I wouldn't have known [00:26:50] otherwise. And I just can't emphasize enough the importance of having that broader community to strengthen you.

[00:26:56] Dale and Steph: I can't imagine trying to do this with just The two of us. No. Um, [00:27:00] We had another, uh, friend that was, is also a colleague and, and she was close with me and, She did [00:27:10] eventually be, was local and, and she would check, would check on us and she kind of knew the really, the really ugly, [00:27:20] um, that not everybody got to see that we were trying to manage.

[00:27:25] Dale and Steph: She got to see

[00:27:27] Curtis: the

[00:27:27] Curtis: real deal.

[00:27:28] Dale and Steph: She got to see the other [00:27:30] areas and hair that were running out like she got to see the ugly

[00:27:34] Curtis: Yeah.

[00:27:35] Dale and Steph: If she didn't not just the ugly like with Karen for your parents But the ugly of how this impacts a [00:27:40] local family a family right like how it impacts our household how it impacts our girls And and I think you've got to have at least one person or a couple people that I mean They [00:27:50] know what's really going on right?

[00:27:52] Dale and Steph: There's there's nothing hidden. There's not secrets. We're transparent You And, and we're safe. Yeah.

[00:27:57] Dale and Steph: Like, all of those things matter. And that's how [00:28:00] we've always tried to do ministry, but then when it gets to be, like, in Every day. you're like, Yeah.

[00:28:06] Dale and Steph: I can ask people to pray for me when things get tough, but I'm like, [00:28:10] these, these are daily things.

[00:28:11] Dale and Steph: Like, I feel like I'm coming to you and like, sometimes you feel like such a burden because you're sharing so heavily, but you're like, I have to have [00:28:20] somebody that I know is praying and sincerely knows. the impact of everything that we're going through not just a hey [00:28:30] again this month. Can you pray for us?

[00:28:32] Dale and Steph: There's a lot of people that say, you know You need to be in counseling during space like this or support groups, and I think those are good things, I want to be clear. I believe that [00:28:40] but I also believe that there is there's nothing that takes the place of spiritual friendship

[00:28:45] Curtis: Yeah.

[00:28:46] Curtis: One of the things, you know, one of the things that we keep challenging [00:28:50] people through this is that, man, I was blessed with such an amazing support group of people, you know, my church, my buds, my neighbors, like just [00:29:00] poured in, poured in, poured in. And I just, I keep challenging people, you know, we all know somebody going through stuff like this.

[00:29:07] Curtis: We just do. We all know somebody going [00:29:10] through stuff like this and and and people are always saying things like I don't know I don't know what to do do something

[00:29:16] Dale and Steph: do something yeah,

[00:29:17] Curtis: Like do something just show [00:29:20] up You keep you know, I told Chris was asking me. I'm one of the podcast. He said Tell me what a friend should do.

[00:29:27] Curtis: And I said, never stop asking [00:29:30] just because I'm in the thick of grief and I don't want to go to breakfast with you today, or I don't, I don't want you to come by the house. I don't need food today. That doesn't mean it's [00:29:40] a one and done. Like, don't stop. I'm not turning you away permanently. I'm turning you away today.

[00:29:46] Curtis: Just today, I just need space today, but you [00:29:50] better show up tomorrow and you better show up the next day and you better show up the third day and you better show up the fourth day and you better show up a year from now. If you want to know how to be a friend to somebody going through stuff, [00:30:00] you just keep showing up because you can't get offended if they didn't need you that day or didn't, or just didn't have the capacity to have a [00:30:10] conversation or two or whatever.

[00:30:12] Curtis: And so, I don't know, just you sharing that just in. Helps me want to remind people to just keep asking, keep [00:30:20] showing up, keep, keep offering a hand. Um, that's all that, that's all that got me through. And that's what you're saying too, is that your people showed up.

[00:30:29] Dale and Steph: [00:30:30] Yeah. I'd say, like, definitely the people showed up and it's not, like you said, it's not that the counseling was bad, like, but I didn't have, like you said, I didn't have the capacity. Yes. [00:30:40] Do anything more or spin one more plate. That's right.

[00:30:42] Dale and Steph: Or to check a box. Like, I did go to counseling, but it wasn't until after some of those other plates stopped spinning, not [00:30:50] necessarily because they crashed, but because that season of that plate spinning was done.

[00:30:55] Dale and Steph: And so I just, Not to say don't do counseling, but definitely don't [00:31:00] push away your village or your people. Invite them into the ugly space and the hard space that you're in. Yeah.

[00:31:07] Dale and Steph: And I think one of the reasons we had people show up for us is, [00:31:10] I can't say this about me, but I can say this about you because you're incredible at this is, uh, Steph is someone who is a friend.

[00:31:17] Dale and Steph: And she's a friend at all times, right? [00:31:20] And so she was investing in other people before she was at a place where she needed people to invest in her. And I think when you live your life that way, where you're pouring into others, you [00:31:30] position yourself for a sense of reciprocity that comes when you find yourself at that point of need.

[00:31:36] Dale and Steph: And so we're all going to find ourselves facing hard things. If, [00:31:40] if we're gonna have the grace we need from others during that time, then we have to be a grace to others before that time for us. And that's, I, you were that. You just did that so well.

[00:31:49] [00:31:50] [00:32:00] [00:32:10] [00:32:20] [00:32:30] [00:32:40] [00:32:50] [00:33:00] [00:33:10] [00:33:20] [00:33:30] [00:33:40] [00:33:50] [00:34:00] [00:34:10] [00:34:20] [00:34:30] [00:34:40] [00:34:50] [00:35:00] [00:35:10] [00:35:20]

[00:35:28] Curtis: [00:35:30] Growth. I use that word loosely, but I'm trying to grow out of this experience. Like. Like [00:35:40] what's God doing, you know? Michael gave us that mantra that really happened. She literally told us don't shy away from this go [00:35:50] cry your guts out do whatever you have to do, but don't shy away from this She said dive into it cry hurt do as much as you can but don't shy [00:36:00] away from the hard things and she challenged the kids and I both and I've done that You I feel like I've, I've tried to go in and I'm saying, Lord, what, [00:36:10] what do you want to do?

[00:36:11] Curtis: What are you trying to teach me in the hardest of hard places? And so my question is, is growth. You know, you guys have been in ministry. [00:36:20] Tell me about ministry before tragedy and ministry after.

[00:36:28] Dale and Steph: I think, [00:36:30] uh, and I think most, I think most people understand this, but, um, pain, difficulty, suffering, it transforms you, right? and it either makes [00:36:40] you hardened in your heart, Or it makes you, um, receptive to see other people and have great empathy for them, right? And I think the biggest thing that it [00:36:50] did, um, for me personally in ministry was it increased my capacity for empathy.

[00:36:55] Dale and Steph: Right? I think until you've personally suffered, it's very [00:37:00] difficult to display empathy or really feel empathy for another person. It is, it's really only after.

[00:37:05] Dale and Steph: you've been through it yourself. That you find yourself able to empathize [00:37:10] effectively. I think that's especially true for, for people that are like leadership kind of mindset, right?

[00:37:15] Dale and Steph: Um, you know, I'm not a, like, I'm an Enneagram, right? I'm an Enneagram 8, which is [00:37:20] hard charger, driver, like, let's take the hill, let's go, you know? Like, who cares who gets left behind? Let's go, we got a mountain to climb, you know? They're back there because they're [00:37:30] slow. I mean, that's the way my head works.

[00:37:32] Dale and Steph: They stub their toe and then they stop. But we're gonna keep going. But they need to learn how to walk better if they're stubbing their toe, you know? That's, that's how my [00:37:40] head works. And, and this experience in ministry has given me a great deal of empathy for people who are suffering and fighting a battle in the midst of trying to [00:37:50] do ministry as well.

[00:37:51] Dale and Steph: So I'm way more empathetic with our pastors. I'm way more empathetic with, uh, board members that I'm working with who are fighting significant battles that got all the [00:38:00] plates spinning. And there's more than, than growing a church to, uh, To what they are called to do in that place and and I'm it's it's really helped [00:38:10] me right to move to a more Pastoral care approach to ministry and not

[00:38:16] Curtis: No, that's good. That's good.

[00:38:18] Dale and Steph: I Don't know. What would you say in ministry how [00:38:20] it's how it's transformed ministry for

[00:38:21] Curtis: Or in life, I mean,

[00:38:24] Dale and Steph: Well, I think there, I mean, we've always, like I said earlier, we've always done ministry. [00:38:30] We've tried to be transparent about how we go about doing and being in ministry. It's helped me to be more open to not just be behind the [00:38:40] scenes saying, Hey, we're in ministry together and I'm beside you and you're the speaker and you're the voice. I've, I [00:38:50] wanted to, in what I wrote, I wrote, I want to, No, matter what, I want to point people back to Jesus and how I Talk to them, [00:39:00] um, interact with them, um, do things for them. But it wasn't until just recently, like I can have [00:39:10] one on one conversations, but I don't want to be the upfront person. I don't want to necessarily be talking about this in a group full of DS spouses [00:39:20] that I just did, um, actually in September that I never, ever thought I would do.

[00:39:25] Dale and Steph: Um, Or being on stage with him talking about experiences [00:39:30] or even doing a podcast and sharing experiences It's just I want to be transparent, but I've wanted to always be the private transparent Like you [00:39:40] lead I support but I'm I'm slowly finding that.

[00:39:44] Dale and Steph: I have a little bit of a voice I'm not afraid to share Maybe still afraid to [00:39:50] share but I'm willing to share

[00:39:51] Dale and Steph: and

[00:39:51] Curtis: that's good because yeah, Dale, you know, I've never had a issue with being [00:40:00] out front or being bold or being right,

[00:40:03] Dale and Steph: Yeah. Oh, yeah.

[00:40:04] Curtis: but, but this has just amped it up to another level. [00:40:10] Of, and I'm not, I'm not talking, I'm not talking about work or coaching or teaching. I'm talking about my boldness for Christ. My boldness to [00:40:20] share.

[00:40:21] Curtis: I tell people, I mean, just random strangers. Yeah, I'm a widower, lost my wife to cancer. God's helping me. [00:40:30] I mean, I just, I just go there. I make more people cry in like the grocery store or the restaurant. I was at a concert the other night and the lady beside me [00:40:40] was like, You know, do you have somebody in the concert?

[00:40:42] Curtis: And I was like, yeah, it's actually soon to be my stepdaughters. You know, my soon to be wife is a widow and I'm a widower. And I mean, I had her in [00:40:50] tears in seconds. I just, I just go there, but it's, but it's not for the purpose of going there to make it hard [00:41:00] for them. It's the, it's this boldness of, I can do this.

[00:41:03] Curtis: I can be so bold for Christ and share his goodness and what he's doing. Even in the [00:41:10] midst of the darkest.

[00:41:16] Curtis: And so I asked that question, you know, on purpose, cause I [00:41:20] want people to hear that, that we can go through this stuff. And if we will really let God do a serious work in the middle of this, [00:41:30] we can do anything, right?

[00:41:33] Dale and Steph: I think that's, That's, it.

[00:41:34] Dale and Steph: That's what

[00:41:35] Dale and Steph: it did for you. You became much more bold. Yeah, and I think, not just for [00:41:40] myself, but for my kids, and like you said, Michael asked us of you and your kids, and if they can't see you doing [00:41:50] this, Then where are they gonna find themselves able to do that? So in a way, it's still kind of a coaching aspect for you to show them [00:42:00] they're strong enough to do this as well at that right time.

[00:42:05] Dale and Steph: Like it's taken me a while to get to this point of even being able to talk about it with a [00:42:10] little bit of tears. it's just not my comfortable place. Like

[00:42:13] Curtis: Crying's part of it. We're, we're going to cry.

[00:42:16] Dale and Steph: always, I cry. This is the thing, yeah, she's a crier for sure. [00:42:20] I'm a crier over a lot of

[00:42:21] Curtis: It's okay. It's okay. I just, I don't need, I'm not even ashamed of it anymore. I just, I just let them out. Yep.

[00:42:29] Dale and Steph: That's good. [00:42:30] More people need to be open to that. But I think it helps the kids know and be able to live into, you know, what their moms ask them to do. And [00:42:40]

[00:42:40] Curtis: Sure.

[00:42:41] Dale and Steph: to reflect on that, that you're able to show that as well to them. They're, it's not easy, um, but you're running into the heart and [00:42:50] I think that's important.

[00:42:51] Curtis: Hey Dale, I, um, I asked you about that chapter in Matthew the other day. I said, Hey, let's,

[00:42:58] Dale and Steph: Oh Yeah

[00:42:59] Curtis: let's [00:43:00] unpack that a little bit because I hate that chapter. I get the premise of it where Jesus is saying. Leave your parents, let the dead [00:43:10] bury the dead, be a follower of me, be my disciple. I understand the premise behind it, but it's such a hard [00:43:20] statement to swallow.

[00:43:22] Curtis: Help me unpack it.

[00:43:24] Dale and Steph: you know, it's, it's interesting. Um, so some of the background on that, that's, that's, I think, important to note [00:43:30] is there's, there was one command that is kind of the chief command in the Old Testament for God's people, right? It's to love the Lord, your God. With all your heart, [00:43:40] with all your mind and your soul, right?

[00:43:41] Dale and Steph: It's the Shema passage out of Deuteronomy and everyone was trained in this. I mean, they, they put it on doorposts of their homes, right? [00:43:50] They wore jewelry that had it printed on it.

[00:43:52] Dale and Steph: You, you were never to forget to honor the Lord, your God above like all else. Right. But [00:44:00] interestingly, um, Um, there had been an amendment to that and culturally within Judaism leading up to the time of Christ, [00:44:10] there, there was a, another teaching that was brought in and the teaching was this, is that the number one thing you have to do is bury your parents when they die.

[00:44:19] Dale and Steph: This [00:44:20] is interesting. N. T. Wright goes, does a deep dive onto this. So you have a responsibility to your father, particularly your father, particularly your Um, above all else. And so [00:44:30] if anything else were to come up, that gets set aside in order to go bury your father. And, uh, N. T. Wright says that what Jesus is dealing with here is [00:44:40] he's pushing back against this culture that says that family takes precedent over God.

[00:44:45] Dale and Steph: Um, and it's a messianic statement on his part that he [00:44:50] is God. And so when he, when he says, you know, Don't go bury your father. I'm above all else. It's a statement that this is a fulfillment of the [00:45:00] Shema. For you to follow me means that you are now loving God with all your heart, mind, and soul. And he wasn't setting himself up against family or the importance of [00:45:10] honoring parents, but he was setting himself up as the son of the living God.

[00:45:16] Dale and Steph: That helps me a little bit with that. Yeah, he wasn't [00:45:20] trying to, to divide my allegiances, but he was trying to make Sure,

[00:45:23] Dale and Steph: that it was understood that Christ is, is in fact God and following him means that I'm fully committed to Christ. [00:45:30] But that's, that's a passage that, uh, has troubled me a lot too, brother.

[00:45:33] Curtis: sure. Well, when we go through these hard places, you know, we're, um, and again, this is a statement that's, [00:45:40] that's hard to swallow, but we try not to idolize the dead. We try not to idolize. We try not, I try not to idolize Michael. [00:45:50] Somebody, somebody said to me recently, it's, it's interesting that when our someone passes away, they become greater than life [00:46:00] in our minds and, and, and.

[00:46:02] Dale and Steph: ha.

[00:46:03] Curtis: go through that. And I've tried not to idolize Michael. I want people to know her message. I want people to know [00:46:10] what she challenged us with in the same token, not idolize her and put her more important than God in my relationship with God, God's using. Our [00:46:20] tragedies, he's using her death. He's using that to, I hope better others.

[00:46:24] Curtis: I hope better her children. I know she's challenged me. She challenged me when I was [00:46:30] married to her. It's a craziest thing that she's still challenging me when she's gone, but that's just, that's the impact she left. And her friends would tell you the same thing. She was just. [00:46:40] That kind of a person, she just challenged you to be better in so many different ways.

[00:46:44] Curtis: I don't know that passage is always I've always struggled with that passage Not with the [00:46:50] idea behind it. God is number one But it's just this really hard cringy feeling of wait a minute. That's my parents You know what? I mean, so that makes [00:47:00] sense.

[00:47:00] Dale and Steph: Oh, it makes complete sense. And it feels like it's, you know, it feels like it violates the, the commandments as well, right? To honor your father and mother. Like that's, come on, we get, we're supposed to [00:47:10] do that. so

[00:47:11] Dale and Steph: how do you, how do you wrestle with that? And shouldn't I lead my family well first and then lead others, other people?

[00:47:18] Dale and Steph: Well, um, it seems like it [00:47:20] makes sense.

[00:47:21] Dale and Steph: I want to go back to like, when I were talking about the moments, the only moments that we have and just one of the things that I had written was, um, [00:47:30] that God is, you know, Yahweh, God of the, God of the moment. Um, God, you are, you are the God of this moment and the moments that I've not [00:47:40] faced yet. But in those moments you will also be.

[00:47:46] Dale and Steph: You are here and you always have been. Thank you so much for your [00:47:50] faithfulness.

[00:47:51] Curtis: Hmm.

[00:47:52] Dale and Steph: I pray continually to give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. And that's from [00:48:00] Thessalonians. And I just, I wanted to just remember that in all moments, that I was experiencing and that I was going to experience.

[00:48:09] Dale and Steph: [00:48:10] Because that was, that was leading into their weeks. prior to their death, like, but I knew it was coming. I'm just like, I want to know that [00:48:20] and other people to know that you're God and you're getting us through this and you, you are and you will always be [00:48:30] what we need. And I think that that needs to always be because like I said, I was, I was this sandwich.

[00:48:39] Dale and Steph: I was, I was [00:48:40] We're in this sandwich generation, and this sandwich, I just felt like I was in, uh, George Foreman, and they're just pushing this grill down and squeezing me to death. [00:48:50] And I just, in those moments, I need to know that, like, I've got my people, but most importantly, I had God, and, and he was always [00:49:00] there, and he will always be there, and even the moments that we were, didn't even know were happening in our own home, That he was present.

[00:49:08] Dale and Steph: That he was [00:49:10] present.

[00:49:10] Curtis: Well, guys, I sure appreciate you sharing. You know, I started this podcast today, just kind of telling people that, you know, I'm past year two [00:49:20] and I feel like my brain is starting to function again. But with, with my brain functioning means I have more questions. I have [00:49:30] more

[00:49:30] Dale and Steph: hmm. Mm

[00:49:31] Curtis: things I want to know, things I want to learn.

[00:49:34] Curtis: Um, I want to hear people's stories. I want to know. I want to know how [00:49:40] they did it well. Does that make

[00:49:41] Dale and Steph: hmm. Yeah.

[00:49:42] Curtis: like It's easy to spot people who are stuck. It's easy to spot people who aren't doing it. Well who they're [00:49:50] crashing and burning under the the pressure Uh, of all of this, but I, I keep wanting to find people who did it well and have found hope at the end of [00:50:00] this hard road and that at the end of the day can still look to God and look to his goodness and his faithfulness, uh, interviewed a pastor friend [00:50:10] recently and, um, you know, he lost his four year old daughter.

[00:50:14] Curtis: And yet he could say God is good. God is faithful. God has always [00:50:20] been good. God's not bad.

[00:50:22] Dale and Steph: Right.

[00:50:23] Curtis: He, he loves us and cares for us in the darkest and deepest moment of our life. [00:50:30] He's still there. He's still carrying us. He's still faithful. And, and, um, that's where I want to hang my hat each and every day. [00:50:40] Um, You know, it's tempting.

[00:50:42] Curtis: It's tempting to, you know, disappear. It's tempting to,

[00:50:46] Dale and Steph: Yeah.

[00:50:47] Curtis: you know, try something else to [00:50:50] make the pain go away. But at the end of the day, I want to keep looking to God and looking to others who are doing it well. And, and, uh, I watched you guys from afar and watched you go through [00:51:00] this and knew that you were faithful to him and he was faithful to you and he was pulling you through this.

[00:51:07] Curtis: So I'm glad that we got to reconnect. [00:51:10] And, um,

[00:51:11] Dale and Steph: Yeah, us too. This has been, this has been really good, um, for us to be able to reflect even on this more fully together. I'm really grateful that you extend the [00:51:20] invite to say, Hey, would you think about this with me? Would you help us to tell a story of, of how God's been faithful? Cause he's been so good.

[00:51:28] Dale and Steph: I, I, I [00:51:30] can't get away from James four, six just says, but he gives more grace. And it's this.

[00:51:35] Dale and Steph: promise that in every circumstance in every season there's a sufficiency of his grace that's adequate [00:51:40] for the need It gives more grace. It's there. We just have to receive it And and in these spaces god is a god who gives more grace to us and it's [00:51:50] available.

[00:51:50] Curtis: Yeah, that's so good Thanks guys. Thanks for your

[00:51:55] Curtis: time. I appreciate

[00:51:55] Curtis: you. Love you. guys.

[00:51:57] Dale and Steph: Yeah, same

[00:51:57] Dale and Steph: brother. I love you, man

[00:51:58] ​ [00:52:00] [00:52:10] [00:52:20]

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