Ep 8: Navigating Waves of Grief: Responding with Compassion

So I can't say that enough, like you're never not gonna feel it. There's smaller waves, but you just, you always feel it. You always feel it. Welcome to the Run to the Heart podcast, where we're here to remind you that God doesn't promise us a life free from suffering, but he always brings healing and restoration on the other end. Our goal is to inspire you to face life's trials with courage and trust in God's plan. And oh yeah, run to the hard that God allows. Hey everyone, welcome back to the Run to the Hard podcast. Curtis, man, it has been incredible just getting the feedback from everybody. I know so many people have reached out to you and told you their stories and people have given us a lot to pray for and pray about. And so first off, you know, if you're watching this, if you're listening to this, I mean, truly we thank you for, you know, just being open with us about your story as we move into this episode man give me an idea here of The response that you've seen from the podcast and people reaching out to you Well You know when I started posting over a year ago just my journey and stories about Michael You know I was I was getting quite a bit of feedback, lots of messages about, you know, I appreciate you being so open and vulnerable, which is a weird word because, you know, that's all Michael. I don't think I was that vulnerable before. I just don't think I was. And so, you know, I would always tell people that, like, this is me, this is me trying to represent her well and to tell her story and you know practice what she Instilled in me, you know to be vulnerable. That's what you know That's what where people will open up and express themselves as when you are open honest trustworthy you know those kinds of words, but When you and I first did the pilot I know you and I sent a bunch of, you know, we sent it out to a bunch of friends and family and even people we didn't know just to get some feedback. And I would tell people, hey, give me honest feedback. Don't just, you know, say what I think, you know, don't say what you want me to hear. I really want to know what you think. And we got some really good feedback. And so from some smart people, some people who've been through grief, some people who haven't been through grief, who just were listening to the story. So it was interesting to see those comments, but then after we launched last week, I think the stories got more real. And they're coming in almost daily. Some people I know, some people I do not know, have a lot of new people who are kind of joining the club saying, hey, I've been following you from afar, you don't know me, but here's my story. And it's like, phew. So I don't know exactly what to do with all that yet, except to welcome them to this journey and tell them how much I appreciate their willingness to even share and open up. And I'm starting these little mini conversations with people, you know, where they'll start to tell their story and then we'll kind of share back and forth. And I'm also getting some critiques, some critiques from people that I would have never imagined, you know, brand new widows and widowers, people who just lost their spouses, and they're saying, I'm listening to these episodes and here's what I'm hearing, here's what I'm seeing and and for me, I'm like whoo like I can't even imagine weeks out Jumping into somebody else's story. That was not my story. You know my story was No, I I hid I didn't want to hear stories. I didn't want to read about stories I was getting books, you know from people read this. This is so good. This will help you and I was like no I'm not I'm not ready for that. So it's been really good and hard and heavy. Starting to feel the weight of it. But that's where you and I have prayed so many times and talked behind the scenes. Okay, God, what do you want to do with this? And I think that's the Only God and the Holy Spirit can help is that you know, this is hard stuff But he's helping us and he's given us direction and he's given us people to witness to and to share even in the hardest times to share his goodness and his faithfulness and so Whoo, it's a man Amen Yeah, yeah, so you and I have talked separately about this concept of turning pain into purpose. And, you know, I'd actually like you to kind of take people back, because we've briefly touched on this, but take people back to, you know, you even beginning to write, and then how it even transformed into a podcast, because that's exactly what you're doing is You're turning your pain of grief into a purposeful ministry to help other people Well, it wasn't the plan. I'll tell you know, this is me just being open and honest like none of this was planned I I couldn't ever you know, this was me just responding to grief which is Which is a weird space that nobody plans on ever going through. I seriously, this is not something planned. But as I'm hearing more and more stories, everybody is finding a path through this. Some people are hiding, some people are talking, some people are writing, some people are listening, some people are reading. For me, and I did, again, I didn't plan it, it just happened for me This outlet of writing and and it was really out of fear I don't think we've talked about this. Maybe we have the other part of grief is that my memory is mush I don't remember things that we've said I don't remember sure what's happened yesterday And I and I know i'm just trusting the lord that you know, my mind hopefully will come back but to be honest with you The writing came out of fear. I would wake up every morning and have this incredible fear of, I don't want to forget this story. I don't want to forget this memory. That's why I would pour through pictures of her and try to remember those moments where we were doing this or that with the kids. I don't know if anybody else has ever experienced that, but I had tremendous fear of I don't want to forget my wife and and because of that every time I would have a thought or a memory or a nugget you know she was always teaching us stuff I was like I just have to write it out I've got to write it out and because I'd already started sharing you know our story with people it was almost like a journal Facebook became this personal journal of, oh, if I can just write it out, I can have it forever. And then somebody said to me, you do know that you're writing a book for your kids, for her kids. And that was probably the first time, like, I started making a conscious decision of, oh, so if I can put this out It's permanent. They can go back any time. And so that's the first time I ever thought of it as something useful. Like I'm writing a book for the kids to hopefully go back and remember their mother someday. And then of course, the responses and people starting to thank me and started to respond with their own stories. It was a process. It was just this continual process of, for me, it was for me to remember. Then it was like something I could do for the kids. And then it was like, oh, people are actually responding to this and relating to it. And I was like, oh, man. But then that adds, then that kind of adds some additional pressure that, to be honest, I didn't, I don't know that I wanted at the time. Which is, you know, it kind of goes into you and I's story. You come to me and say, coach, we need to tell this story and I'm like, I don't know if I want to do this Yeah, you know and so it's just been this constant, you know One thing is morphed into another and here we are, you know talking openly on a podcast but it's it's been good because again, it's another outlet for me to Talk about my life and remember things. And honestly, it's helped me remember things that I completely forgot. Every time you asked the right question or God helps you to give us direction on where we're going, it's like, oh, I remember this thing or I remember this moment or I remember this nugget she gave. And so that part's been good. That's been good. Anyways. Yeah, good, good. Well, so help me live on the podcast here, right? Like help me in real time understand that. So let's say I reach out to you, and I'm sharing my story with you. And I now know that you've taken writing and now you've you've taken the story of your wife, you've been able to remember your wife, you've been able to write and impact others. And now this has turned into a podcast with a platform that can go global like that Which is nuts which is nuts, right? So so what advice do you give to others who are struggling to find purpose in their grief like Curtis? I don't I don't I don't want this public format yet But how can they still find purpose in their grief? I think purpose in their grief? I think for me just finding an outlet. Yeah. And you may be so new in your process that you're like, I have no clue. Maybe it's walking. Maybe walking turns into walking with a friend. Maybe that walking with a friend turns into conversations where you begin to talk and share and remember. But it started with walking. You don't know where it can go to. Yeah, maybe it's a quiet walk with a friend or maybe it's a quiet walk by yourself. You know, there's a person right now who's been listening to all of our stuff and we're talking about a really recent loss of a spouse and I'm shocked. I'm like, how are you even taking this stuff in? The person was like, as soon as my spouse died, I jumped right into this. I wanted to know everything I could about it. I wanted to learn. I wanted to hear about other people's experience. That's not how I related to grief at all, but yet this is how this person is relating. And so this person's reading and listening and going to podcasts. And so I would have never chose that for myself, but for them, that's the new outlet. You know, there's so many outlets, good and bad, you know, I've talked about that, that some people go straight to the bad stuff, you know, where they want to bury the pain, they want to bury all this grief, and so they use all kinds of other things. And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm trying to, we're trying to find a good positive outlet. Um the second thing I did and I so so the outlet of writing Was on accident that I didn't purposely do that. But the one thing I did that I did purposefully was Every time I had time with the kids. We talked about mom every time I Just like I didn't want to forget her in my writing I don't want them to forget their mom. And so, you know, we talk about mom all the time. We make references to mom all the time, even just cracking jokes. You know, remember the time mom spanked you for that? That's hilarious. And, you know, remember the rule that mom used to have about this? Like, what in the world was that about? And so, even in joking, and probably if somebody were to listen in, you know, it might offend them a little bit, but this is how we are doing it You know the kids and I the kids and I are finding every opportunity to you know, talk about mom Whether it's funny whether it's sad whether it's you know hard We just do so here's a question for you so as an outsider, there are multiple different ways, you and I have talked about this before, everybody has a story, okay? Everybody has a story. And when somebody meets you, and they are able to kind of dive into what's actually going on with you, like, hey, how are you, what's new, right? And you're able to share with people, like, let's say someone meets you like, oh, are you married? Right? Yeah. So let's say you say something to the effect of like, oh yeah, so my wife passed away, blah, blah, blah. Okay. What's typically the reaction from an outsider? Like, give me some ways that people respond to this. You know, there's no better way or word to say than awkward. It's so awkward. Awkward conversation. And so one of Michael's lessons was she was so awkward and she was kind of dorky and she just embraced it. And she told me early on, you know, I just embrace it, whatever, just who cares, you know? And so being married to her and understanding awkwardness and learning to kind of embrace it. I don't know it's there's some people I've made so many people cry on accident because I'm like you asked the question so I'm just gonna you know go there and whether it's whether it's you know somebody behind the counter at a grocery store somebody who's you know taking my order at you know Starbucks or whatever like seriously I just I just say it and so you know I went to a antique shop up in Michigan I don't know maybe this winter and Michael and I had been there and we bought a whole bunch of stuff for for the law for the business anyways I went back there and the lady was like I remember you where is your beautiful wife and I was like And she was like what? No way, and so I have to go into this Dialogue and it's a great little store. So I was actually picking up some other pieces for the for the loft again because they always have things that we wanted and this lady over in the corner it's in an antique shop she overhears this whole conversation okay so I'm walking just paying you know mind my own business and looking around the aisles and stuff and she comes up behind me and she says I am so sorry and I was like for what she said I couldn't help but overhear that story and I'm so sorry that you lost your wife and she went right into I lost my husband like Last year to this cancer and whatnot so in the aisle of a antique store this woman's telling me her story Because she over so it just mmm. I don't know that's my new life. I let me ask you a question about that yeah, so when someone comes up to you and And they overhear your story of grief and they begin to tell about their person. What's your reaction to that? Do you do you like that or do you feel like it kind of steals from from your story? Oh No No, this person's remembering their person. Mm-hmm. And so because we have this immediate connection of oh so Oh, so I'm the first thing you just say is I'm so sorry like you just you get used to saying that because you're starting to hear stories so often like don't miss that opportunity just say man. I am so sorry and I get it like I'm there, you know, I'm so sorry, but then When they start to talk about it, like let them talk like this. They may not here's something I've realized and figured out Not everybody's family or everybody's friends want the story. It's too hard. So they avoid it. So let's say you're in a family and you've gone through this grief and you go to the family gathering and everybody's just kind of quiet around you and and and they're not asking questions and they're not giving you opportunity to talk about your person. Does that make It's like ah we love you Appreciate you, but ah you know what I mean, and you can feel it. That's a real thing And so why don't people want to go there though because you've said you were that guy. I was that guy You just don't you just don't know what to say and you don't and if you've never really gone there with somebody you don't even know He just don't know. What do you want people to say? Now or then? Hmm, both. Early on and now. Which to be clear for the person listening, you are a year and a half plus out. So, I've always been pretty good at reading people, you know, just because of jobs and work I've had to hire a lot of people had to fire a lot of people and so, you know character and Personality I'm pretty good at reading people so There are some people you don't want to have the conversation with you're just like oh This is not gonna be good and I'm sorry, but you know I'm just I'm just being honest. Like sometimes you're just, when somebody comes and starts asking you questions and wants to, you know, prod and, you know, kind of get in deep, you're like, I just don't want to go there right now. So you, you, you just, you learn to read people. Early on, I think I just said this was like the first year, I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't want to talk about it. I didn't want to read about it. I didn't want to listen to stuff. I just, I just was struggling But the more stories and the more I understood my own grief Now when somebody starts to tell me their story, I'm like keep it like let me know Because again, maybe they don't get that opportunity in their circle to actually tell the story or to remember their person or talk about Their person so now I'm just like bring it on, tell me tell me about your person. And then if it's going well you begin to ask questions and and you begin to see even a person's countenance change a little bit like oh this person gets me. They get it, they understand and my person means still means something. Yeah, so talking about them, you know, helps. So it's like an unspoken language, man. I don't know how else to explain it. And I'm learning more and more about this unspoken language. Like it's becoming a thing. Yeah. Speaking of the unspoken language, so as an outsider, I'm trying to do my due diligence of understanding like the language and the vernacular behind grief. And dude, I found some really powerful lines that I want to run by you in real time And just and just understand how they land so so I'm looking at all these posts and all these comments of people grieving and things and One thing somebody said was they said grief is just love with no place to go How does that land for you. Yeah she was my best friend like we we shared everything you know we we talked all the time texted all the time and then so this is my this is just my quick immediate response to the question is like you wake up one day and there's a zero place for this to go. Text pictures. Oh Oh, this is so cool. Oh grab your phone. You can't I what do you do? Oh You know Go to bed, you know you Yeah, yeah all the all the exciting things that you know, you want to tell that person here You know, I have there been times when you know people say this I don't know if this is relevant for you But it's almost like someone could lose a parent and then like pick up their phone to get a hold of them Right and then be like oh wow and then have to kind of process That this person does not exist in time and space any longer and so your brain is trying to kind of Process that and understand. Oh, man, so I had to we got several phones, you know, you got kids you got business whatever and and I remember six months ago I was having to redo some of our phones and get some new ones and whatnot And I just I asked the guy the Verizon dealer. I was like, ah, I've got this extra line. He's like, yeah, it's right here It's your wife's number. I was like, yeah, so She's gone like she passed away and he's like, oh, I'm so sorry. So when I I mean it it touches everything in your life Everything and I was like, dude, I need I need your help. He's like, mr. Christopher. What what can I do? I was like, what do I do with this phone? He said well He said you're not ready to turn it off yet are you I was like, no, I'm not he said then don't He's like then don't don't worry about it. Just leave it on. It's not a big deal. Like just don't, don't, don't do that. Well, what I didn't know, her dad, sorry. No, buddy. You're good. We were at a family gathering and her dad was like, Hey, I talked to Michael today. I was like, what? Why would you say that? He said, no. He says I call her number all the time and listen to her voice. You're kidding me. Oh wow. I didn't know that. Here I'm over here deciding what to do with her phone or whether to leave it on and you know. So it's everything. Yeah. All the things that you and I take for granted, every single day is affected and touched by it in one way or the other. Things that people don't even think about. And so I leave her phone on. lady, she texted me one time, she was so upset. She's like, you could have warned me. I was like, for what? What did I do? She said, I heard this buzzer going off on your desk and you didn't tell me that you'd brought Michael's phone in to do some work on it. And there's a lady that Michael had been praying for every single day. a noon every day a reminder alarm went off pretty long back up in oh My gosh, it's so for Beth. It was like what is this and picks this phone up off my desk and is like Michael's vote hmm Man, that's incredible That's incredible and I you know, I've never turned it off so if I do charge her phone and leave it in my drawer or something like that at noon every Day that alarm goes off Pray for Rebecca Yeah, wow so the reminders are on her phone is on yeah Her dad her dad was calling her phone just to hear her voice, and you yeah, you had no idea any of that This makes me think of an analogy you gave me recently, and I'm big on analogies, I love analogies, because they really help us understand complex concepts easily. So yeah, share that with us. Several weeks after Michael passed away, a counselor friend messaged and said, hey, you know I'm here if you need me, you know, and I was like, okay. And I was like, I probably do I don't know what I need yet. I have no idea anyways, I I went I went to an appointment just to kind of hear her out and and she She's the one who gave that analogy. She said you're like in the storm Like all you can feel is just waves just crashing in non-stop, you know You and you're you feel like you're drowning and I was like yep pretty much you know and she said she said this is the best way I can help you is that the storm will subside and the waves will get less but the waves don't ever stop you know they get slower they get slower but you're always going to feel a way small small or not. And you know that analogy works because most of us have been in the water and we understand that if you just float around out there, you're going to feel it. And then she said, but the thing you can't prepare for is that rogue wave, you know, out of nowhere. You know, a boat could have gone across the lake a half mile away and you don't know it and you're just out there floating around all of a sudden damn you're like what in the world was that or or you hear about ocean liners getting sunk by a rogue wave out in the ocean you know those are the ones that are hard to prepare for so she was right you know after the storm subsided you you begin to you always feel it so I can't say that enough like You're never not gonna feel it. They're smaller waves, but you just you always feel it You always feel it but then kind of like the phone. Yeah. Oh, yeah, you know didn't see that coming damn You know, they're not they're not all the time but they do hit a rogue wave will just kind of hit you out of nowhere and I just I'm just learning to roll with it. Like it's gonna happen. I've driven I've driven up to a restaurant window for takeout before and right before I get to the window a Certain song comes on and I'm sobbing and I'm looking at the person thinking and then I'm like, whatever Whatever, you know, just I'm just rolling with it, but that's happened I've literally got to the window to pick up an order And just start crying It's nuts and so you know yeah But it was it was a good analogy, and I haven't forgot it because it's true because I the part I didn't want to hear was You're always gonna feel it. I was like. I don't want to know that like don't tell me that I'm always gonna feel this It's never gonna go away, but I needed that it was a truth it's it's just fact you're always going to feel it. Well in terms of processing grief I was listening to a guy who's talking about some really powerful concepts and one thing he said is so he was actually a guy who lost lost a child and he he started a program to kind of help people with grief. And he said, like, what people forget who are grieving is that you were literally created, like you were biologically created to know how to grieve. It's not like you have to learn how to, per se, is what he was saying. He was like, every one of your ancestors have died. So many people in your life will pass away. And so like, we are created to actually know how to handle this. We think we don't know during it, right? But ultimately, like, everyone grieves differently and there's no right or wrong way to grieve. But basically, he's like, we were all created to grieve because people will pass away in our lives. It's a guaranteed fact. We're all gonna go through it. Yeah, yeah. So do you agree with that or disagree with that in the place you're in? Because you can disagree, it's fine. Can you learn to grieve? Can you learn? Or is it experiential where it's just like. It's experiential. Oh, yeah. You know, we've talked about the fact that Michael was so open about, you know, death to our kids and the fact that, you know, guys, this is going to happen. We should all be preparing. We should all be teaching our kids. We should all be teaching our families like, hey, you know, this is just it's real. It's going to happen like we should be prepared for it. But. Hearing it. Is not experiencing it like it's just isn't. You and I, you know, we love to talk about business and entrepreneurial and starting this and starting that and you and I, we could talk until we're blue in the face and talk about all that we've read and all we've done, but until you have sold your house, moved to North Carolina, emptied your bank account, like started from scratch and just clawed your way through it. Like you don't know. Yeah. Right? No, you're right. You're right. And so it's like it's the same. Like I can I can learn as much as I want about this stuff but until you experience and until you're in the deep and the thick and the hard and you're clawing your way out with some help you know we don't do it alone yeah you just you're learning it as you go yeah so so talk to me about the kids people are always wondering what's happening with the kids I mean for those of you tuning Five kids. And I mean, we've been through some things in our lives, but I can't imagine being the ages of these kiddos having lost a mom, and a mom as strong as Michael. And so, you know, right now you're the person who's trying to lead these kids through grief as you're experiencing it right ahead of them sure and so you know give me Give me an idea of how they're processing all of this Well, we just we talked about the fact that we talk about mom all the time like we just we make it a habit we just She was so full of life and energy and she gave us a lot to talk about She was she's not a forgettable person And so you know that's the first step, we just talk about it a lot. And the second is to just recognize, I don't know, moments, how are you doing? What are you feeling? Sometimes, sometimes it just happens where something will happen that will trigger us, or if I'm with one of them and something triggers it. And so, instead of like, being like, oh, like we don't want to talk about it or oh that was hard. And so we just know I'm learning to when those times happen to just dive into conversation and and and try to work through it and oh My goodness today's Thursday Monday night we go to a stupid movie. I'm like, oh we don't have any ballgames or anything tonight You know, I'm like, let's go do something so we go to dinner and we go to this movie and it's called if it's about imaginary friends and I don't know if anybody's seen it advertised and I'm like oh it's age appropriate it'll be fine it'll be fun oh my goodness I'm not lying in the first five minutes it's about an eight-year-old girl who loses her mom to tears are starting to trickle. And then, you know, the movies about this little girl who experiences her mom passing away and they're at grandma's house and they're, and she's remembering all these memories. And the reason they're at grandma's house again is because dad's in the hospital for a heart surgery and she's worried about losing him. I'm like, Oh my word. Like what a terrible movie to choose. Anyways the whole movie is about how hard things make kids have to grow up so fast that they forget about their imaginary friends and their creativity and fun of being an innocence of being a child. That's the whole premise of the movie and I'm like, oh my word. So I've got I've got one kid on one shoulder I've got another kid on the other shoulder and half of us are crying and so This is this is happened three days ago. Okay, so so this is our life You're asking about five kids, you know experiencing grief like this is our life. This is what the stuff just happens So we get out to the truck and we're kind of we're half laughing like whose idea was that that was a terrible idea And so we're kind of laughing about it and then you know one kid says yeah I looked up and Curtis is crying then I started crying and I look over at so-and-so and they're crying We're kind of making fun of it like we're making light of it and we're like, okay We are embracing this weird and crazy life. We didn't choose it. We didn't choose it. We didn't want it. But it's our life. Had a long talk with one of the kids recently about, I'm sorry. I'm sorry mom's gone. I'm sorry that this is our life. But this is our life and we can't change it. Like what are we going to do to embrace it and keep moving forward and keep you know Because I think the conversation was something about man I hate going places and seeing happy moms and daughters together It just I feel this huge void and like ah, you know what I mean? Yeah, I was all I could say was like I'm so sorry like I'm sorry. I'm sorry that this is our life Yeah, I know you need a mom Desperately and then of course the conversation. Well, I don't want Everybody wants to be my mom, you know, I don't want them as my mom. I want my mom, you know, I mean, oh Yeah, this is Yeah, you feel at all but we're I Don't know This is our life and we are trying to embrace it and and kind of make fun of it as we go like who knew that that's what that movie was about I was like what you gotta be kidding me man. That's so tough, dude That's so tough. You know as I'm looking at the date Mother's Day just passed. Yeah, how was Mother's Day for the kids? um Obviously last year the first one was that was rough. Yeah this year You know we made it a point to Take flowers, you know go to the cemetery take flowers and and so we we do that enough now that It's not as hard. It's not as painful But the kids prepared from for Mother's Day this year Did they see it on the calendar and kind of prepare themselves? No, I think everybody avoids it. Oh, okay. Yeah, I think it's like, oh, oh, oh, it's Mother's Day. Like, oh, okay, let's just get through this day. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. The first Christmas, that was the very first Christmas I remember, oh, everybody just wanted the weekend to get by as fast as possible. Let's just get this week over with as fast as possible. Just, because you're with family or with you know, it just oh that was rough that was sure So yeah, there are dates on the calendar that you Try to burn through as fast as you can you just Yep, they're hard. Yeah, it is hard. So I know as a parent of five That I always tell my kids life's not fair, right? And I wonder how the kids are processing the language that I've seen time and time again with Ingrid, it's not fair, right? It's not fair that these beautiful kids had to lose mom at the ages where they haven't even started life. None of them are married, none of them are actually going through all of those things and they're going to have to go through those things without mom. And so how does that conversation land with them when they're feeling this injustice, if you will, about losing mom? Again, having to embrace the question, embrace the story, and then try to find nuggets, what would mom do, what would mom say. What would Michael have, you know, let's say the rules are reversed, what would Michael have taught the kids and instilled in them when it came to the feelings of this not being fair, that this happened to them? She would go back to, yeah, life's not fair, life is hard, bad things are going to happen, what are we going to do with that, how are we going to embrace that. She wrote in that little document that I had her record, she said, and I don't have it in front of me, otherwise I'd read it, because it was so powerful, you know, 43 or 83, we're all going to die, but she went on to say, she said, I can honestly say that my life has been a joy and a privilege, even the hard and the bad and the ugly, as well as the good and the great, because I've learned something from all of it. And I This is a woman literally on her deathbed the day before we're going to turn all the machines off and she's just spouting out just Unbelievable profound things that you gloss over this someone sentence But it's so powerful. I am Glad and I have joy in the fact that I can appreciate my whole life even the bad stuff the hard stuff the ugly stuff Like who says that or who even thinks that like I don't I don't like those Hard spots in my life at all. I don't I've learned a lot from but I'm not glad I went through You know what? I mean? Yeah, absolutely. And so you're asking the question. How would she respond to this? Well, she already did she responded in this Profound statement of I'm grateful for all the days God gave me Whatever they were I'm like, whoo That's convicting because I got a I don't know that I'm there. I don't know that I'm all the way there Sure, you know, sure. Well speaking of you not being there, you know, how how are you processing these feelings of like, man, Lord, did this really happen? Like, are we actually experiencing this life? All the time. I'll wake up in the morning and be like, what in the world? That's a normal wake up moment. Look around and be like, this is nuts. Like, all right. And then, and then you're like, okay, you know, what's in front of me today? I'm very much Task oriented right now because I don't remember everything so I have to write it down and I don't get my list done every day but I have to It's one of the ways it's a coping mechanism Give me a list how many of these things can I knock down a day? Because if I don't have something in front of me to do I can lay in bed all day in that moment. Like, this stinks. Well, and all of these experiences, you know, like, this episode to me has really boiled down to the waves, the waves of grief, you know, like you sharing that analogy, and us now understanding, you know, Michael's dad calling her phone is a wave, right? The reminders coming in is a wave. You guys going to a movie that is just like so relative to what's happening with your life, it's a wave, you know? And what I'm hearing from a coping perspective, and this may not be for everybody, is like you guys are realizing like this is the hand God has dealt us. He has allowed this heart in our lives, and it seems like you use humor with the kids, which, I mean, God gave us those emotions, right? He gave us those emotions. You use humor with the kids, you're constantly helping the kids remember Michael, constantly talking about stories, and whether it's the teaching moment or you're flat out making fun of her, you know what I mean? Yeah, and I'll say, Curtis, as, again, as an outsider, since I've been doing this podcast, I can't tell you how many people I've run into who have a story of grief, of someone really, really close to them. And as I've had these conversations with people, what I'm trying to figure out when it comes to the language of supporting somebody in this grief is when I walk up to you and we and we learn about I'm trying to learn about you and I learned about your story. We talked about in the first episode people want to run like, oh, that's awkward. Okay, bye. Right. And so I've been trying to understand from others and I've been trying to understand from you and I've been trying to research how can I tactfully show them support that what they just said is still resonating in my head. It's still there. And so I wanna give you something I found really powerful that I would like to start applying to these conversations with people. I'm gonna ask you the exact same question. And this is how we're gonna wrap this up. So, what I've learned is the next time I speak to somebody and I ask them a question like, oh how many kids do you have? And they tell me something like, oh yeah, so I have three on earth and one in heaven. Rather than the whole like, oh so sorry. I want to apologize for their loss, I want to ask them this question, which gives them a way to open up or close down. And the question is this, what do you want me to know about your loved one? So let me ask you that. People listening to this show, maybe tuning in for the first time, seeing this episode title and saying, oh, I need that. Right? What do you want me to know about Michael? I'm kind of caught off guard with the whole conversation. Yeah. Because you can't run into anybody who hasn't experienced something in their life. Back to everybody has a story. And then I love that you're learning how to, because of this podcast, you're learning how to interact with people. You're like, oh my word. Like how many times did I miss, oh, I lost my dad or I lost my spouse or I lost a kid because immediately our brain just goes, it like shuts off. Yeah, because you're not expecting it. Yeah, you hear that and you don't know what to do with it. So I appreciate your openness about like Yeah, I'm seeing these conversations happen in front of me if I didn't if you and I were just random strangers and and we had a conversation and You said hey, I'm sorry. And then you followed it with tell me about I'm like Just openly? I don't know what I would do with that. Like I'm just trying to process this in real life. Listen to my language. This is great. Listen to my language though. I'm not saying tell me about the person. I'm saying what do you want me to know about your daughter? What do you want me to know about your son? That way you can either say that they knew Jesus and they're in heaven, right? It's a way to open up the testimony and throw it back at them and or something with more depth beyond that, right? Oh, thanks for asking, right? But regardless, in my mind, that line is you can go as deep or as shallow as you wanna go because I said, what do you want me to know? Not tell me about the person, which is way broad. Gotcha. Yeah, so a year ago, I wouldn't have been ready for that conversation. You know, when it's fresh, for me personally. Yeah. You know, I'd have been like, oh man, thanks for asking, she was amazing. You know, she was my, you know, off the top of my head, I'd say she, you know, we both had hard lives. We both went through some hard divorces. We, you know, and I use this language even with people that I don't know if they know the Lord or not or anything, I'm like, man, the Lord brought us two together. Like, he just did this really neat thing, brought us together and we were best friends. Like I was married to my best friends and we were having a blast and she got sick. And next thing I know, you know, she was gone and she was amazing. So early on, you know, I would probably frame it like that. And then, you know, as I'm getting farther down the road You know I would say things like man. She was a you know not just an amazing person, but she was an amazing mom We've got five kids Yeah, it's this is you know a hard road to to travel as we're trying to figure out You know what we do with kids and work and all this kind of stuff, so I definitely would would respond to that statement but it would be different over time and then as I would gain more purpose in my as I would gain more purpose in my thoughts and testimony I think now I could I could deeper but I couldn't have you know I couldn't have done that early on hmm well this is a super good this is super good dialogue to have because again I'm I'm saying okay this podcast and doing this podcast has made me so much more sensitive to those grieving because I'm understanding more. And I know grief is ahead of me in ways that I haven't imagined. Because that's a part of life. God never promises that we aren't going to experience suffering. And so, having said that, take me back to the beginning of your grief. You know, is there anything I could have said to you that would give you the indication that I care very much that you just said that and I don't want to gloss past that and then just go super shallow after that. But like, how could I show you I care and still give you an out to go as deep or shallow as you want? No, I think it's good. I think the question can be asked a reef or framed according to how you know the person. Oh for sure. So I think the actual question it's a good it's a great question but you're not gonna ask it exactly the same depending on how you know the person and so no I like it it's kind of like it's kind of like the lady in that antique store who was like I'm sorry but I overheard your conversation I just wanted you know how sorry I was like that was totally random Yeah, but I think it goes along with what you're saying like this person Who well, it's a little bit different. They've experienced deep grief and they made that immediate connection like Whoa, this guy's just going you know what I mean? But for somebody who has an experience deep grief to be able to just acknowledge Man, I'm so sorry, but man, you know, who was she? Who were they? What should I know about this person? I think it's a good question because it does open up the ability to talk about them, to share about them, to share your testimony if you're not ready You don't have to you don't have to yeah That's good. That's good. That's helpful. It's a good question. Yeah, well, that's helpful for us because Again, like we have these conversations someone will say oh My husband passed away three months ago, right? and then usually usually what happens in my experience is they say something else really fast to like, yes, to bury it. Yeah. And so I want to be like, Whoa, hang on. I'm I'm really sorry that that happened. Yeah. And kind of give them the space to be able to go wherever they want with it. Yeah. So it's just so hard, man. Like, you know, this is not this is not a viral topic. This is something everybody goes through. But this is not something that you can find a lot of great resources on and so are because because everybody does it so differently yes like there's not a normal yes 10-step program that works for it's just we're wired so differently and we process so differently oh man so differently yeah I get it yeah yeah Yeah, well, we want to help, you know, those of us who are seeing those of you grieving, we want to help, we want to say the right thing. You know, I'm sure we can do a whole episode on what not to say. How about that? Yes, we can. What not to say. Really awkward conversations. Yeah, yeah. Oh, it's hilarious. Well, so I want to end this on a scripture. And it's Psalm 34 18 and it says the Lord is close to the brokenhearted and he saves those who are crushed in spirit. And, you know, as someone looking at this, maybe you're on that end and you're saying, oh, that's nice. Right. But but God promises us comfort in his word. Right. And a peace that passes all understanding when we ask for it. And so, you know, our prayer is that people will continue to reach out to you and, you know, to tell us their story, because we want to pray for you. Like we're not just saying that, like, I want stories and I want to understand how we can specifically pray for people, because this is the most real topic we could ever cover. Yep. No, I appreciate it. Yeah, man. Yeah. Well, thanks, everybody, for joining us today on the Run to the Heart podcast. Again, please tell us your story. Let us know how we can pray for you. We have a huge mission to get this podcast out to the masses. If you feel like this is going to help someone, please do, number one, subscribe to this show on whatever platform that you listen or watch a podcast and then share it. Share with somebody who needs to hear this. So thanks guys. Share with somebody who needs to hear this. So thanks guys. You

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